Originally Posted by Lewbronski

I don’t work for United or Delta, but I can tell you that United has been negotiating its contract for over a year longer than Delta.

Delta opened negotiations in April 2019. United began talks in March 2018.

More importantly, Delta pilots entered mediation in January 2020. That means they have been in mediation for more than 2.5 years. Typically, though the pandemic occurring in the interim likely throws the typical time table off, that would be when the possibility of a release from mediation might begin to become realistic. What that means is that they are beginning to build significant leverage under the RLA in addition to the same sorts of leverage that United pilots have as a result of the pilot shortage.

United pilots, on the other hand, never filed for mediation. That means United pilots are, at a minimum, two to three years out from having the same sort of leverage as the Delta pilots have now.

After more than four years of negotiations and all of the leverage that the pilot shortage supposedly offers to pilot groups, United ALPA produced what is almost uniformly being described as a turd by its own pilots.

It remains to be seen what Delta pilots will produce when they announce their TA. However, given the additional leverage they have created for themselves, it’s likely to be a more attractive deal than what United has come up with so far.

I have written extensively on this United forum since the release of the TA about why entering into mediation sooner rather than later is important in terms of cultivating leverage. You can search my username for posts on the subject if you want more extensive information about why United ALPA not filing for mediation after all this time is such a tragic mistake. But, in short, it has robbed your pilot group of leverage they easily could have had. That will likely cost you guys dearly in terms of the time value of money and the final product that ends up being ratified.

Originally Posted by fadec

What kind of braindead crap is this? What's the point of a mediation board if it's nothing more than a human chess clock? If things are really this bad then Delta isn't in any better position than us. Self help may have to mean exactly that.

So step one is apply for mediation. Then let's get credit for time served and if that won't work all hell breaks loose.

Originally Posted by Lewbronski

Unfortunately, that’s not the way it works. In the eyes of the NMB and in the eyes of the courts, “time in mediation” is a much more important input into determining if a release is appropriate than “time in negotiations.” It’s not the only factor in determining when to release parties from mediation, but it’s an important factor.

For example, from a 1990 US Court of Appeals decision when a union was attempting to obtain a release from mediation by suing the NMB: “The time during which disputes between employees and commuter rail companies are in mediation must be compared with all other carrier disputes mediated before the Board. In this case, the Board has offered evidence that the time in mediation falls within the range of average times in other mediation cases.”

Notice the court didn’t make any mention of “time in negotiations.” The court only spoke of “time in mediation.” There are other examples from other court decisions that address the same concept.

While mediation is not simply an issue of timing, entering mediation expeditiously, but not too quickly so as to appear to be attempting to game the system, is all part of effectively leveraging the RLA.

The NMB acknowledged this issue of timing in their 2010 “Dunlop Report”: “One problem
noted is that a party may prematurely file for mediation. This may be motivated by a desire to ‘get on the clock’ to establish an early start date in order to more persuasively argue later for a release.” In other words, they’re giving credence 1) to the concept that filing for mediation earlier rather than later can make it easier to more persuasively argue later for a release, and, 2) we don’t want to file too early.

Originally Posted by Hedley

Admittedly a very small sample, but I asked a LCA in the crew room what he thought about the deal. He said that most of the LCA’s that he knew were upset over the override not being paid for the entire trip as well as the rest of the deal. He said that he and others were definite no votes. Much of what he does is deadhead around the system doing new captain fed rides and line checks, and if this TA were to pass he’d either refuse line checks and just do OE or resign as an LCA and chase premium trips. According to him other LCA’s are feeling the same way.

Originally Posted by EWRflyr

I don’t care how people decide to vote on the TA. Contract decisions are deeply personal for many people. I don’t discuss my vote with anyone and have yet to fully read everything or be fully educated now that the educational component has been pulled down. I’m undecided at this moment in time.

But what I don’t like seeing is the anger, vitriol and some of the emotional rants going on. I’m a pilot and was trained to be analytical and make decisions based on facts not emotion. The way I see it is we are in this situation because certain people cannot play by the rules: the MEC votes first. Then the TA gets sent out for member ratification, pro and con statements get published, educational videos/road shows/town halls/Q&A happen then people vote with the facts in hand.

You all complain about a sales job. All I see on here is one big sales job to vote NO. And what that means is people are scared and trying to put their thumb on the scale of the outcome. Debate is certainly one thing and expected. However, why do you think Wendy and the C12 reps were so quick to issue these negative talking points ahead of the MEC getting the message out with documents for everyone to read? They need to feel relevant or they lose perceived power. All this says to me is they don’t trust pilots to decide what is best for them. And I don’t trust a rep who won’t let me have the information first and trust me to make my own decision. You want to see a sales job? This is it and many on here have fallen for it hook, line and sinker. Actions like this are desperation for an old, failed political way of running ALPA.

As I said, I’m undecided but we at least reached a TA…finally. Then miraculously AA sends a revised proposal to the APA days after ours comes out? From my friends at AA, they say it sounds like it matches ours. Our TA got AMR to finally move apparently according to their own CEO. Now where is DAL? They’ve been negotiating longer than we have and have nothing to show for it except possibly some international scope agreement. Otherwise, all I see is them out picketing and holding signs while the other Delta employees get raises. Not exactly getting results over at DAL are they?

I don't care how people vote on this TA. I will make my own decision in the privacy of my own home after reading the provided documents, pulling out my personal list of desires then looking at how this agreement matches up with my personal wants and expectation. However, no one on here or in the flight deck or crew room will sway me either way. Just as I won't be sold to vote FOR the TA, I'm not going to be sold to vote AGAINST it either.

I guess I'll go start the popcorn as I just know it's coming. BRB.

Originally Posted by Chowdah

No disrespect, but you clearly didn’t read the actual contract language for the LCAs. The TA guide claims gains that are in fact entirely at the discretion of the company

Originally Posted by Mytime2025

MEC is meeting this week and will decide steps going forward and they have power to cancel the TA.

Originally Posted by Mytime2025

Scared of what? A forum is by design a place to express your opinions on matters that affect you. I would say this TA affects us all. Are they scared about being offended ? If your that sensitive then yes by all means stay off the forums. Luckily I'm immune from being offended I just speak my mind and I think I've made it clear this TA is an insult to the profession. Agree or disagree it matters nothing to me. BTW crickets from the MEC . I got slammed for suggesting the TA was " effectively suspended" until we get communication from the MEC I still stand by that statement. Yes voting is still open by why would you vote until you know what the hell is going on? That's why I said effectively. Don't like it? Fine with me just speaking truth to reality.