Contract talks
11-26-2019 | 11:54 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Since CAL was actually experiencing a liquidity shortfall due to failed short term investments, anticipated run on the bank for higher paid pilots retirements, and lack of high yield PRASMs it was only a matter of time til they had to find a dance "merger" partner.
There was not some grand scheme to wipe out CAL’s “industry leading” scope LOL.
11-26-2019 | 12:28 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
From: B757/B767 Right
Not true. CAL was only feeding two hubs, and didn’t need a large feed, just like JB and other smaller airlines don’t need a large feed. CAL scope was limited to 50 seat jets, but there was no limit, including Q-400 planes which could be configured to 78 seats.
This is the reason CAL needed to be bought by someone. They were going to be out of cash in short order and the 3rd and final BK was on the horizon.
There was not some grand scheme to wipe out CAL’s “industry leading” scope LOL.
This is the reason CAL needed to be bought by someone. They were going to be out of cash in short order and the 3rd and final BK was on the horizon.
There was not some grand scheme to wipe out CAL’s “industry leading” scope LOL.
Nobody cares!!!!!
11-26-2019 | 12:31 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,159
Likes: 1
Not true. CAL was only feeding two hubs, and didn’t need a large feed, just like JB and other smaller airlines don’t need a large feed. CAL scope was limited to 50 seat jets, but there was no limit, including Q-400 planes which could be configured to 78 seats.
This is the reason CAL needed to be bought by someone. They were going to be out of cash in short order and the 3rd and final BK was on the horizon.
EWR and IAH were good hubs, but the cherry was Guam. That thing was a money maker.
There was not some grand scheme to wipe out CAL’s “industry leading” scope LOL.
This is the reason CAL needed to be bought by someone. They were going to be out of cash in short order and the 3rd and final BK was on the horizon.
EWR and IAH were good hubs, but the cherry was Guam. That thing was a money maker.
There was not some grand scheme to wipe out CAL’s “industry leading” scope LOL.
The scope was on the target list. Evidence of that is our current book scope. Scope is still on the target list. To pretend otherwise is silly.
A liquidity short fall had more to do with retirement obligations. and short term investment bafoonery. Bankruptcy wasn't happening for 5 to 7 years based on the balance sheets. BK was also on the horizon for L-UAL. Not that it matters, but there were big holes there as well. Both airlines had upside and downside, both needed a partner. I would say it was a shotgun wedding.
I think the issue at hand is what management is doing and why and who the players are and what their playbook looks like. What they know, who mentored them, who taught them, and how they develop their strategy to marginalize labor and mitigate any advantage labor has.
History is relevant if you have a perspective of what your adversary is going to do and why.
I am familiar with the miracle lure strategy. I am familiar with bait and switch, and I am familiar with bribing pilots, and tricking them into cutting their own throats. I guess we'll see what management does after the holiday season. likely no movement on anything til after the Holidays.
11-26-2019 | 02:21 PM
#24
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,725
Likes: 0
From: UAL retired
If you "hide" finances it's a crime that usually results in jail time as the Enron executives found out. People like Lorenzo make no bones about bleeding a company dry, but there is no "hidden" money when a company uses corporate cash flow to enrich themselves.
Show me a financial statement to support your allegation, and I will reconsider my position.
Once Delta and Northwest merged the remaining players were left at a competitive disadvantage that could only be overcome by further industry consolidation. No one was better or worse, it was a simple fact that ALL the remaining majors needed to consolidate to survive. Size matters in our industry and none of the players were immune nor were any of them going to survive without a merger. If you don't believe me I will be happy to show the actual quarterly reports from that era.
More importantly we are doing well now, and the industry is finally on solid footing after 100 years of bankruptcies. We should be thankful we all ended up on the other side of that story, and look at the past as a step necessary to get to where we are today which is a pretty darned good place, AND we should all be proud of our heritage because each of the survivors had something good to bring to the table.
11-26-2019 | 03:12 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,159
Likes: 1
[QUOTE=Sunvox;2930375
Show me a financial statement to support your allegation, and I will reconsider my position.
More importantly we are doing well now, and the industry is finally on solid footing after 100 years of bankruptcies. We should be thankful we all ended up on the other side of that story, and look at the past as a step necessary to get to where we are today which is a pretty darned good place, AND we should all be proud of our heritage because each of the survivors had something good to bring to the table.[/QUOTE]
Back in the day there was funds being moved around from short term investments and long term investments, paying bills, and funding retirements, and then buying gobs of ground support equipment. It may be overly harsh to state they were hiding it, but it sure was difficult to find. Hiding it in plain sight may be more of a good description.
There is no doubt the entire industry is on better footing.
However, Kirby and Oscar still don't want to write the check.
Show me a financial statement to support your allegation, and I will reconsider my position.
More importantly we are doing well now, and the industry is finally on solid footing after 100 years of bankruptcies. We should be thankful we all ended up on the other side of that story, and look at the past as a step necessary to get to where we are today which is a pretty darned good place, AND we should all be proud of our heritage because each of the survivors had something good to bring to the table.[/QUOTE]
Back in the day there was funds being moved around from short term investments and long term investments, paying bills, and funding retirements, and then buying gobs of ground support equipment. It may be overly harsh to state they were hiding it, but it sure was difficult to find. Hiding it in plain sight may be more of a good description.
There is no doubt the entire industry is on better footing.
However, Kirby and Oscar still don't want to write the check.
11-26-2019 | 03:19 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 908
Likes: 0
From: 737 fo
This is innuendo put out by the MEC which led to the discussion on here and now starting on the line that somehow we need to be worried about UAL long haul flying. In 1998, the company argued that capital was limited so that meant we had money to buy 50 seaters or we had money to keep flying 747s but we didn't have money for both. The pilots were scared into submission by ALPA leaders, and we signed up for 2 decades of out sourcing our own jobs.
The argument was pure balderdash.
Today our own union has hinted at a similar argument. The company can out source at the short end OR at the long end, and we don't have enough negotiating capital to fix everything.
Balderdash.
UAL has a highly planned capital budget with known purchases of large equipment. We already have a WB fleet 20% bigger than AA and DAL and we are minting money. Management even has taken flying back from Lufthansa in a couple hubs and talked about that in town hall meetings. Kirby has ZERO intention of presiding over a domestic carrier. His sights are set on making United THE premier global carrier and he has said such over and over. You don't do that by outsourcing your most profitable and prestigious routes.
We can tighten the language on JVs if necessary without a second thought towards RJ Scope relaxation, and the MEC/NC are simply making excuses. I had faith in Todd, but if this is coming from him then he needs to go and we need someone in the lead who will start accelerating the negotiations to what seems to be an inevitable fight. Enough with the Kum-by-ya era. I freely admit that 2 years ago I believed the words of our MEC Chair and CEO that this time would be different, but by now it should be clear it is not.
ALPA keeps telling us we fast tracked large swaths of the contract and there are only 3 major issues left which usually go fast once the company decides they are ready. Well then . . . Get 'er done. Take a strike vote or whatever the next step is or at the very least stop playing the patsy and put out a strongly worded update stating loudly and clearly that the number one issue for 99% of the pilots at UAL today is Scope and there will be NO give on that. Stop with the double speak innuendo on Scope. ALPA polled the pilots and have the direction they need. Time to execute on the wishes of the line pilots.
Each and everyone reading this thread or similar threads online needs to contact their ALPA reps by email and simply re-iterate that Scope IS NOT FOR SALE. Move on.
The argument was pure balderdash.
Today our own union has hinted at a similar argument. The company can out source at the short end OR at the long end, and we don't have enough negotiating capital to fix everything.
Balderdash.
UAL has a highly planned capital budget with known purchases of large equipment. We already have a WB fleet 20% bigger than AA and DAL and we are minting money. Management even has taken flying back from Lufthansa in a couple hubs and talked about that in town hall meetings. Kirby has ZERO intention of presiding over a domestic carrier. His sights are set on making United THE premier global carrier and he has said such over and over. You don't do that by outsourcing your most profitable and prestigious routes.
We can tighten the language on JVs if necessary without a second thought towards RJ Scope relaxation, and the MEC/NC are simply making excuses. I had faith in Todd, but if this is coming from him then he needs to go and we need someone in the lead who will start accelerating the negotiations to what seems to be an inevitable fight. Enough with the Kum-by-ya era. I freely admit that 2 years ago I believed the words of our MEC Chair and CEO that this time would be different, but by now it should be clear it is not.
ALPA keeps telling us we fast tracked large swaths of the contract and there are only 3 major issues left which usually go fast once the company decides they are ready. Well then . . . Get 'er done. Take a strike vote or whatever the next step is or at the very least stop playing the patsy and put out a strongly worded update stating loudly and clearly that the number one issue for 99% of the pilots at UAL today is Scope and there will be NO give on that. Stop with the double speak innuendo on Scope. ALPA polled the pilots and have the direction they need. Time to execute on the wishes of the line pilots.
Each and everyone reading this thread or similar threads online needs to contact their ALPA reps by email and simply re-iterate that Scope IS NOT FOR SALE. Move on.
11-26-2019 | 04:22 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Reuters and NYTimes disagrees with you.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...00503?irpc=932
United Airlines parent UAL Corp will buy Continental Airlines Inc for $3.17 billion in an all-stock deal that will form the world’s largest carrier and potentially prune excess capacity in the airline industry.
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/03/b.../03merger.html
United is buying Continental, and the combined company will keep the United name and be based in Chicago.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...00503?irpc=932
United Airlines parent UAL Corp will buy Continental Airlines Inc for $3.17 billion in an all-stock deal that will form the world’s largest carrier and potentially prune excess capacity in the airline industry.
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/03/b.../03merger.html
United is buying Continental, and the combined company will keep the United name and be based in Chicago.
11-26-2019 | 04:46 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 908
Likes: 0
From: 737 fo
Reuters and NYTimes disagrees with you.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...00503?irpc=932
United Airlines parent UAL Corp will buy Continental Airlines Inc for $3.17 billion in an all-stock deal that will form the world’s largest carrier and potentially prune excess capacity in the airline industry.
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/03/b.../03merger.html
United is buying Continental, and the combined company will keep the United name and be based in Chicago.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...00503?irpc=932
United Airlines parent UAL Corp will buy Continental Airlines Inc for $3.17 billion in an all-stock deal that will form the world’s largest carrier and potentially prune excess capacity in the airline industry.
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/03/b.../03merger.html
United is buying Continental, and the combined company will keep the United name and be based in Chicago.
11-26-2019 | 05:07 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,559
Likes: 0
From: A Nobody
OK if you all want to fight over the what was meant by the words of the UAL CAL agreement you can. The ultimate facts are the two airlines "merged" their operations, the Corporation was renamed (and subsequently done again) and CAL Senior Management was initially in charge.
Tilton and his group did what they were hired to do, build up a huge cash reserve and find a dance partner in a consolidating industry. They did and the initial sad thing was Jeff S became the captain of the ship and he had no idea what he was doing.
You all need to get over who did what! It was a merger, the seniority list was arbitrated based on a merger and here we are 10 years later making money.
Gert over it!
Of course both United and Capital airlines pilots complained about the merger until the day all those involved retired or died.
Tilton and his group did what they were hired to do, build up a huge cash reserve and find a dance partner in a consolidating industry. They did and the initial sad thing was Jeff S became the captain of the ship and he had no idea what he was doing.
You all need to get over who did what! It was a merger, the seniority list was arbitrated based on a merger and here we are 10 years later making money.
Gert over it!
Of course both United and Capital airlines pilots complained about the merger until the day all those involved retired or died.
11-26-2019 | 05:59 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 3
From: The GF of FUPM
Yet a year ago you (with the input of your executive collective brain trust) told us that we were about to ink a new contract and UA was about to order a whole slew of new small narrow-body airplanes.
Who needs to take off the tinfoil hat?
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
