Originally Posted by Itsajob

The biggest stick that we have relating to scope is time. The company really does need more big rj’s to be competitive. We have a bunch of junk 50 seat jets where the competition has much better regional product. We can either cave now and get a few more dollars per hour or wait this out and get a much better contract. The rj’s flown by United pilots crowd isn’t going to get what they want, but we are in a position to gain back more by waiting than by rushing to just sign something. I’m willing to give anything relating to scope an honest read, however if it weakens our position at all, then the rest of the contract is not worth reading. We downsized considerably while the regionals boomed. It’s time to go the other way.

Originally Posted by 757Driver

All good points but isn't it, via the very examples cited above, a stalemate? In my 30+ years experience, when the two parties come to such a point we declare an impasse and seek self-help or bring in arbitration. Also at that point the Union would normally start informational picketing and other less than desirable public displays that voice our displeasure.

Waiting is a double-edged sword. Wait too long and the economy starts to tilt in the other direction giving the company the advantage. Right now is the perfect time to start these public displays while the corporation is humming along on all 8 cylinders.

Originally Posted by baseball

With out the CAL and UAL concessions neither airline would have been in a positon to survive much less thrive.

Originally Posted by APC225

That is the tarot card part of these downturns, 9/11 more than any in our lifetime. Were concessions to survive real, or just an opportunity of a lifetime for to them to take back all the gains made by a generation of pilots. Execs brought up in the 1980s bust the union ferver had to see this as a unique opportunity.

Originally Posted by baseball

Here's the deal...….Remember after 9 11 concessionary contract...Remember what management said. Both CAL and UAL...

"We just need these temporary concessions until we get back on our feet."

In reality, no carrot and stick required.

Just hold firm. Our demands are reasonable and consistent with the mindset and goal of "taking it back."

You don't need a carrot and stick to take back what you already had. You just need firmness of conviction. You need resolute leadership, and lock-step solidarity.

These MBA woosies haven't slept on hangar floors, haven't slept in cars in snowed in airport parking lots. Haven't driven trucks at night and flown during the day. They haven't stocked shelves at Walmart at night and flown 135 in the day time. They haven't juggled waiting tables and traffic watch, they haven't flown pipe line patrol and balanced turning wrenches in the air force reserve. These guys aren't battle tested. They don't know what it's like to dig in and push all your chips to the middle.

If the company doesn't want to give it back nicely, OK, that's fine. Lets party.

In traditional bargaining, there is "trading"..."give and take." In this kind of bargaining, there is only TAKE. We are just asking, very nicely, and very patiently mind you, for what is ours. We are simply asking for the dignity, career progression, and career expecations, and job security of our profession to be properly restored in proper recognition and reward for us SAVING the airline. Not just one airline mind you, but two separate airlines.

With out the CAL and UAL concessions neither airline would have been in a positon to survive much less thrive. We, the pilots made it possible for both airlines to rise above and be in a position for a merger of equals and the concessions we took, should be re-paid. O

Our carrots were stolen from us shortly after 9-11 and the sticks were all shoved up our arse. So, We can re-use the old carrot and sticks if we need to, but in reality, we've done all the groveling and begging we need to do.

Any mandate for a carrot and stick approach by the pilots is an insult to the concessions we took and delivered on a silver platter. FUTIB, FUPM, FUIWIB.

Originally Posted by Regularguy

Ok all you tough guys answer something for the choir;

What tools do you have that will force the Company to give it all back?

Ok let me ask it another way, if a new agreement is never completed and the current one continues for another 5 to 10 years what does the Company have to lose and additionally what do you have to lose?

Originally Posted by rightside02

I agree with the avoid mediation theory , just look at Alaska and Virgin ... guys got hosed hard.

Originally Posted by Happyflyer

Institutional investors, section 6 is a real process, they can't just write it off since they're managing large funds of other people's money. They'll eventually look to invest in a company that doesn't have labor "problems".

IMO early negotiations are a total waste of time and create pilot fatigue and help the company.
The pilots expect progress prematurely, and the company is allowed to yak about scope and set expectations for a whole year.