Contract talks
11-30-2019 | 12:41 PM
#91
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,159
Likes: 1
I assume you meant “no more RJs on the cheap”. Define what that means, please.
Why? Because the United MEC has already come out and said that reversing all the outsourcing in one contract negotiation round won’t be possible. That puts years possibly a decade until....
Reversing pilot’s losses from the previous two decades all in one go is one thing. Partially reversing it in the current negotiation round is still a gain, and more realistic. But a partial gain implies also a partial concession. For example, perhaps the 175s can be brought in-house but only with a RJ-scale pay. In future negotiation rounds the remaining issues can be negotiated away.
….. But are YOU willing to take negotiations to this level, where gives as well as takes do happen? If we don’t push negotiations to this level, we aren’t trying hard enough, IMO.
Why? Because the United MEC has already come out and said that reversing all the outsourcing in one contract negotiation round won’t be possible. That puts years possibly a decade until....
Reversing pilot’s losses from the previous two decades all in one go is one thing. Partially reversing it in the current negotiation round is still a gain, and more realistic. But a partial gain implies also a partial concession. For example, perhaps the 175s can be brought in-house but only with a RJ-scale pay. In future negotiation rounds the remaining issues can be negotiated away.
….. But are YOU willing to take negotiations to this level, where gives as well as takes do happen? If we don’t push negotiations to this level, we aren’t trying hard enough, IMO.
Or, We could say enough already.
Funny, management can take in all away in one fell swoop, in one contract, they get it all. Then, we take 30 years clawing back to get crumbs.
Funny, management kills the career in one concessionary round and we suck eggs for an eternity.
Scope...…..gone.
Bankruptcies management wins with their golden parachutes, and we're stuck in the cargo hold and we lose it all while they vacation in their home in Barbados.
RJ's came in one contract, but we can't un-do it? We can't put the jennie back in the bottle?
PBS, the concession that keeps on giving. Lets kill that for a start and take that back. We need to add up every single concessionary dollar that we've taken and take it back. In one single contract.
30 years of commercial flying is sweet, factor in the lost decade, and the fact that we haven't taken it back....man oh man. We can't take it back in one contract? why the heck not? They took it in one contract. Plus they owe us interest.
11-30-2019 | 02:34 PM
#92
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 4,083
Likes: 0
From: CRJ9 CA
We could just bury our heads in the sand and say "management wins."....again.
Or, We could say enough already.
Funny, management can take in all away in one fell swoop, in one contract, they get it all. Then, we take 30 years clawing back to get crumbs.
Funny, management kills the career in one concessionary round and we suck eggs for an eternity.
Scope...…..gone.
Bankruptcies management wins with their golden parachutes, and we're stuck in the cargo hold and we lose it all while they vacation in their home in Barbados.
RJ's came in one contract, but we can't un-do it? We can't put the jennie back in the bottle?
PBS, the concession that keeps on giving. Lets kill that for a start and take that back. We need to add up every single concessionary dollar that we've taken and take it back. In one single contract.
30 years of commercial flying is sweet, factor in the lost decade, and the fact that we haven't taken it back....man oh man. We can't take it back in one contract? why the heck not? They took it in one contract. Plus they owe us interest.
Or, We could say enough already.
Funny, management can take in all away in one fell swoop, in one contract, they get it all. Then, we take 30 years clawing back to get crumbs.
Funny, management kills the career in one concessionary round and we suck eggs for an eternity.
Scope...…..gone.
Bankruptcies management wins with their golden parachutes, and we're stuck in the cargo hold and we lose it all while they vacation in their home in Barbados.
RJ's came in one contract, but we can't un-do it? We can't put the jennie back in the bottle?
PBS, the concession that keeps on giving. Lets kill that for a start and take that back. We need to add up every single concessionary dollar that we've taken and take it back. In one single contract.
30 years of commercial flying is sweet, factor in the lost decade, and the fact that we haven't taken it back....man oh man. We can't take it back in one contract? why the heck not? They took it in one contract. Plus they owe us interest.
11-30-2019 | 07:00 PM
#93
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 585
Likes: 48
From: 757/767
I honestly don't care how and why management sees what they see. We don't get a key to the executive wash room and we don't get a corner office.
We're pilots...……...We need to think like pilots. At the end of the day our career is what we value it at, and not what management says its worth.
I am tired of low ball expectations coming out of management's mouth. Their homes are paid for, and their kids college funds are safe and secure, and their retirements were funded the day they got hired. most of them have second and third homes, and they get to ride in first class whenever they want.
Tired of management left overs being handed down to the ones making this happen. We, the pilots are in the drivers seat and we're in charge. Take it back, take it all friggin back. We're still about 15 years behind in taking it back.
the lost decade has had a domino effect on everything economic related to pilots earnings and retirements.
We still got a pilot shortage. That should mean something to management. That means "management hasn't done enough to restore the profession." If they had done their work, on their side of the table, then we wouldn't have a shortage of pilots, we'd have a gluttony.
We're pilots...……...We need to think like pilots. At the end of the day our career is what we value it at, and not what management says its worth.
I am tired of low ball expectations coming out of management's mouth. Their homes are paid for, and their kids college funds are safe and secure, and their retirements were funded the day they got hired. most of them have second and third homes, and they get to ride in first class whenever they want.
Tired of management left overs being handed down to the ones making this happen. We, the pilots are in the drivers seat and we're in charge. Take it back, take it all friggin back. We're still about 15 years behind in taking it back.
the lost decade has had a domino effect on everything economic related to pilots earnings and retirements.
We still got a pilot shortage. That should mean something to management. That means "management hasn't done enough to restore the profession." If they had done their work, on their side of the table, then we wouldn't have a shortage of pilots, we'd have a gluttony.
11-30-2019 | 11:08 PM
#94
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 3
From: The GF of FUPM
You can’t take it back unless you give something in exchange. B scale? You willing to work for regional pay? B scale us where this all started. Pilots said no to B scale. Regionals were born. It’s not that simple but it’s pretty darn close. So what do you have left that you can sacrifice?
This is a joke, right?
12-01-2019 | 12:08 AM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,159
Likes: 1
You can’t take it back unless you give something in exchange. B scale? You willing to work for regional pay? B scale us where this all started. Pilots said no to B scale. Regionals were born. It’s not that simple but it’s pretty darn close. So what do you have left that you can sacrifice?
But, it's ok for management to take it, and steal it, and rob from the pilots. That's oK, they don't ever have to agree to give back what was stolen under bankruptcy, or the threat of bankruptcy, or liquidity short fall. Ok, I got it. Pilots MUST give it all up when a gun is pointed to their head, no trade-off required. But, pilots are forbidden from getting it back when the shoe is on the other foot. Got it.
Why exactly do I need to trade A for B? Why exactly do I need to give something up in order to get back what I already had? Why can't I just say, FUPM? or FUIWIB?
That has a very negative effect on my attitude dude. What does management sacrifice exactly? What's their trade-off? They get some not so comfy toilet tissue in the executive washroom? Man, when do we get to enjoy the go?
Last edited by tomgoodman; 12-01-2019 at 08:13 AM. Reason: Language
12-01-2019 | 12:16 AM
#96
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,159
Likes: 1
I will sacrifice the chewy granola bars, and the necessity to have a long layover 1:20 minutes from the airport in NYC and NRT.
In reality I will sacrifice pilots with attitudes that say I need to sacrifice even more....Not willing to sacrifice anything monetary. Really, I don't need to sacrifice anything. It's management that needs to simply give it back.
It's the same as some kid who got his lunch money stolen by the school bully. Now, the kid has grown some stones and is ready to take his lunch money back from the school bully. It's the same in my eyes. The kid has a choice....give back the lunch money, or get a bloody nose.....and also give up the lunch money. Chicken nuggets, and tater tots for everyone I say.
In reality I will sacrifice pilots with attitudes that say I need to sacrifice even more....Not willing to sacrifice anything monetary. Really, I don't need to sacrifice anything. It's management that needs to simply give it back.
It's the same as some kid who got his lunch money stolen by the school bully. Now, the kid has grown some stones and is ready to take his lunch money back from the school bully. It's the same in my eyes. The kid has a choice....give back the lunch money, or get a bloody nose.....and also give up the lunch money. Chicken nuggets, and tater tots for everyone I say.
12-01-2019 | 05:58 AM
#97
Banned
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,358
Likes: 0
We could just bury our heads in the sand and say "management wins."....again.
Or, We could say enough already.
Funny, management can take in all away in one fell swoop, in one contract, they get it all. Then, we take 30 years clawing back to get crumbs.
Funny, management kills the career in one concessionary round and we suck eggs for an eternity.
Scope...…..gone.
Bankruptcies management wins with their golden parachutes, and we're stuck in the cargo hold and we lose it all while they vacation in their home in Barbados.
RJ's came in one contract, but we can't un-do it? We can't put the jennie back in the bottle?
PBS, the concession that keeps on giving. Lets kill that for a start and take that back. We need to add up every single concessionary dollar that we've taken and take it back. In one single contract.
30 years of commercial flying is sweet, factor in the lost decade, and the fact that we haven't taken it back....man oh man. We can't take it back in one contract? why the heck not? They took it in one contract. Plus they owe us interest.
Or, We could say enough already.
Funny, management can take in all away in one fell swoop, in one contract, they get it all. Then, we take 30 years clawing back to get crumbs.
Funny, management kills the career in one concessionary round and we suck eggs for an eternity.
Scope...…..gone.
Bankruptcies management wins with their golden parachutes, and we're stuck in the cargo hold and we lose it all while they vacation in their home in Barbados.
RJ's came in one contract, but we can't un-do it? We can't put the jennie back in the bottle?
PBS, the concession that keeps on giving. Lets kill that for a start and take that back. We need to add up every single concessionary dollar that we've taken and take it back. In one single contract.
30 years of commercial flying is sweet, factor in the lost decade, and the fact that we haven't taken it back....man oh man. We can't take it back in one contract? why the heck not? They took it in one contract. Plus they owe us interest.
I’m not saying that I’m in a giving mood. We should hold the line on scope, work on improving reserve rules, sick leave, etc. If people think that we’re going to have 76 seat jets at mainline and take back everything either taken or traded away over the last 20 years in one contract, they should be prepared to be disappointed. The company wants scope relief, we won’t give them what they want. This isn’t going to end in an agreement any time soon. Until then I’ll fly my current contract and let those at the table do their job.
12-01-2019 | 06:33 AM
#98
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,561
Likes: 0
From: Captain
You can’t take it back unless you give something in exchange. B scale? You willing to work for regional pay? B scale us where this all started. Pilots said no to B scale. Regionals were born. It’s not that simple but it’s pretty darn close. So what do you have left that you can sacrifice?
Fly a lot, get your hours and Try to get out of Mesa
You have a lot to learn young man
12-01-2019 | 06:37 AM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,559
Likes: 0
From: A Nobody
Ok all you tough guys answer something for the choir;
What tools do you have that will force the Company to give it all back?
Ok let me ask it another way, if a new agreement is never completed and the current one continues for another 5 to 10 years what does the Company have to lose and additionally what do you have to lose?
What tools do you have that will force the Company to give it all back?
Ok let me ask it another way, if a new agreement is never completed and the current one continues for another 5 to 10 years what does the Company have to lose and additionally what do you have to lose?
12-01-2019 | 09:31 AM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 4,083
Likes: 0
From: CRJ9 CA
I came to this industry from a business background. I’m a regional guy but I’m
With you. Don’t give an inch. Take back what you can but you have to be a realist at some point. It’s give and take. You just want to take. And in order to take it’s either carrot or stick. Well the RLA has removed the short term stick. It’ll take YEARS to get to the point where any labor action can happen. I don’t know your current contract but unless it has a poison pill or some clause that if not amended by a certain date the X consequence happens - you have no stick. There is Zero incentive for the company to do any more than go through the motions. Since there is no stick that leaves the carrot. The only carrot you have is what you are willing to yield on. The only thing the company wants you to yield on is scope. So either you do or you live with the current contract. For a long time. It’s not about what’s right. That’s a sad fact. Enlighten me if I’m wrong. What’s your stick to take scope back. What’s your carrot? You might take it back if you give on wages. You guys willing to do that to get it back? It’s a short term sacrifice. But are you willing? It’s why I asked what do you have to give? What’s your carrot?
With you. Don’t give an inch. Take back what you can but you have to be a realist at some point. It’s give and take. You just want to take. And in order to take it’s either carrot or stick. Well the RLA has removed the short term stick. It’ll take YEARS to get to the point where any labor action can happen. I don’t know your current contract but unless it has a poison pill or some clause that if not amended by a certain date the X consequence happens - you have no stick. There is Zero incentive for the company to do any more than go through the motions. Since there is no stick that leaves the carrot. The only carrot you have is what you are willing to yield on. The only thing the company wants you to yield on is scope. So either you do or you live with the current contract. For a long time. It’s not about what’s right. That’s a sad fact. Enlighten me if I’m wrong. What’s your stick to take scope back. What’s your carrot? You might take it back if you give on wages. You guys willing to do that to get it back? It’s a short term sacrifice. But are you willing? It’s why I asked what do you have to give? What’s your carrot?
I see. So it doesn't work for pilots taking it back unless we give up the pooty.
But, it's ok for management to take it, and steal it, and rob from the pilots. That's oK, they don't ever have to agree to give back what was stolen under bankruptcy, or the threat of bankruptcy, or liquidity short fall. Ok, I got it. Pilots MUST give it all up when a gun is pointed to their head, no trade-off required. But, pilots are forbidden from getting it back when the shoe is on the other foot. Got it.
Why exactly do I need to trade A for B? Why exactly do I need to give something up in order to get back what I already had? Why can't I just say, FUPM? or FUIWIB?
That has a very negative effect on my attitude dude. What does management sacrifice exactly? What's their trade-off? They get some not so comfy toilet tissue in the executive washroom? Man, when do we get to enjoy the go?
But, it's ok for management to take it, and steal it, and rob from the pilots. That's oK, they don't ever have to agree to give back what was stolen under bankruptcy, or the threat of bankruptcy, or liquidity short fall. Ok, I got it. Pilots MUST give it all up when a gun is pointed to their head, no trade-off required. But, pilots are forbidden from getting it back when the shoe is on the other foot. Got it.
Why exactly do I need to trade A for B? Why exactly do I need to give something up in order to get back what I already had? Why can't I just say, FUPM? or FUIWIB?
That has a very negative effect on my attitude dude. What does management sacrifice exactly? What's their trade-off? They get some not so comfy toilet tissue in the executive washroom? Man, when do we get to enjoy the go?
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