Contract talks
12-01-2019 | 03:17 PM
#111
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,032
Likes: 18
12-01-2019 | 04:16 PM
#112
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,508
Likes: 109
You can’t take it back unless you give something in exchange. B scale? You willing to work for regional pay? B scale us where this all started. Pilots said no to B scale. Regionals were born. It’s not that simple but it’s pretty darn close. So what do you have left that you can sacrifice?
When I bought my house I gave a price I was willing to pay, below market value, and required new floors because I knew what the house was work and the sellers needed to move it as they were moving for a new career. There was no quid pro quo.
I will not vote yes on a contract that gives an inch on scope, or trades one thing for another. The company wants to grow and move passengers, and when I’m sharing responsibility for millions in revenue a day, billions in liability, and hundreds of millions in assets, you better believe I want my expertise and experience paid for as well as recovering that which was stolen from our brethren.
Co: we can’t compete - AA and DL have more 76 seaters
Pilots: you already have relief. Bring on a new SNB and you can add them.
Co: too expensive. Give us a break.
Pilots: ok then you can have all you need. Bring them in house. There are pilots flying them now - hire them.
Co: but but but .....
At best this is an impasse. If it made sense for the co to do so they would have taken the easy road.
Pilots: you already have relief. Bring on a new SNB and you can add them.
Co: too expensive. Give us a break.
Pilots: ok then you can have all you need. Bring them in house. There are pilots flying them now - hire them.
Co: but but but .....
At best this is an impasse. If it made sense for the co to do so they would have taken the easy road.
Last edited by Grumble; 12-01-2019 at 04:28 PM.
12-01-2019 | 04:20 PM
#113
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,159
Likes: 1
Here's the deal...….Remember after 9 11 concessionary contract...Remember what management said. Both CAL and UAL...
"We just need these temporary concessions until we get back on our feet."
In reality, no carrot and stick required.
Just hold firm. Our demands are reasonable and consistent with the mindset and goal of "taking it back."
You don't need a carrot and stick to take back what you already had. You just need firmness of conviction. You need resolute leadership, and lock-step solidarity.
These MBA woosies haven't slept on hangar floors, haven't slept in cars in snowed in airport parking lots. Haven't driven trucks at night and flown during the day. They haven't stocked shelves at Walmart at night and flown 135 in the day time. They haven't juggled waiting tables and traffic watch, they haven't flown pipe line patrol and balanced turning wrenches in the air force reserve. These guys aren't battle tested. They don't know what it's like to dig in and push all your chips to the middle.
If the company doesn't want to give it back nicely, OK, that's fine. Lets party.
In traditional bargaining, there is "trading"..."give and take." In this kind of bargaining, there is only TAKE. We are just asking, very nicely, and very patiently mind you, for what is ours. We are simply asking for the dignity, career progression, and career expecations, and job security of our profession to be properly restored in proper recognition and reward for us SAVING the airline. Not just one airline mind you, but two separate airlines.
With out the CAL and UAL concessions neither airline would have been in a positon to survive much less thrive. We, the pilots made it possible for both airlines to rise above and be in a position for a merger of equals and the concessions we took, should be re-paid. O
Our carrots were stolen from us shortly after 9-11 and the sticks were all shoved up our arse. So, We can re-use the old carrot and sticks if we need to, but in reality, we've done all the groveling and begging we need to do.
Any mandate for a carrot and stick approach by the pilots is an insult to the concessions we took and delivered on a silver platter. FUTIB, FUPM, FUIWIB.
"We just need these temporary concessions until we get back on our feet."
In reality, no carrot and stick required.
Just hold firm. Our demands are reasonable and consistent with the mindset and goal of "taking it back."
You don't need a carrot and stick to take back what you already had. You just need firmness of conviction. You need resolute leadership, and lock-step solidarity.
These MBA woosies haven't slept on hangar floors, haven't slept in cars in snowed in airport parking lots. Haven't driven trucks at night and flown during the day. They haven't stocked shelves at Walmart at night and flown 135 in the day time. They haven't juggled waiting tables and traffic watch, they haven't flown pipe line patrol and balanced turning wrenches in the air force reserve. These guys aren't battle tested. They don't know what it's like to dig in and push all your chips to the middle.
If the company doesn't want to give it back nicely, OK, that's fine. Lets party.
In traditional bargaining, there is "trading"..."give and take." In this kind of bargaining, there is only TAKE. We are just asking, very nicely, and very patiently mind you, for what is ours. We are simply asking for the dignity, career progression, and career expecations, and job security of our profession to be properly restored in proper recognition and reward for us SAVING the airline. Not just one airline mind you, but two separate airlines.
With out the CAL and UAL concessions neither airline would have been in a positon to survive much less thrive. We, the pilots made it possible for both airlines to rise above and be in a position for a merger of equals and the concessions we took, should be re-paid. O
Our carrots were stolen from us shortly after 9-11 and the sticks were all shoved up our arse. So, We can re-use the old carrot and sticks if we need to, but in reality, we've done all the groveling and begging we need to do.
Any mandate for a carrot and stick approach by the pilots is an insult to the concessions we took and delivered on a silver platter. FUTIB, FUPM, FUIWIB.
12-01-2019 | 04:26 PM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,508
Likes: 109
Here's the deal...….Remember after 9 11 concessionary contract...Remember what management said. Both CAL and UAL...
"We just need these temporary concessions until we get back on our feet."
In reality, no carrot and stick required.
Just hold firm. Our demands are reasonable and consistent with the mindset and goal of "taking it back."
You don't need a carrot and stick to take back what you already had. You just need firmness of conviction. You need resolute leadership, and lock-step solidarity.
These MBA woosies haven't slept on hangar floors, haven't slept in cars in snowed in airport parking lots. Haven't driven trucks at night and flown during the day. They haven't stocked shelves at Walmart at night and flown 135 in the day time. They haven't juggled waiting tables and traffic watch, they haven't flown pipe line patrol and balanced turning wrenches in the air force reserve. These guys aren't battle tested. They don't know what it's like to dig in and push all your chips to the middle.
If the company doesn't want to give it back nicely, OK, that's fine. Lets party.
In traditional bargaining, there is "trading"..."give and take." In this kind of bargaining, there is only TAKE. We are just asking, very nicely, and very patiently mind you, for what is ours. We are simply asking for the dignity, career progression, and career expecations, and job security of our profession to be properly restored in proper recognition and reward for us SAVING the airline. Not just one airline mind you, but two separate airlines.
With out the CAL and UAL concessions neither airline would have been in a positon to survive much less thrive. We, the pilots made it possible for both airlines to rise above and be in a position for a merger of equals and the concessions we took, should be re-paid. O
Our carrots were stolen from us shortly after 9-11 and the sticks were all shoved up our arse. So, We can re-use the old carrot and sticks if we need to, but in reality, we've done all the groveling and begging we need to do.
Any mandate for a carrot and stick approach by the pilots is an insult to the concessions we took and delivered on a silver platter. FUTIB, FUPM, FUIWIB.
"We just need these temporary concessions until we get back on our feet."
In reality, no carrot and stick required.
Just hold firm. Our demands are reasonable and consistent with the mindset and goal of "taking it back."
You don't need a carrot and stick to take back what you already had. You just need firmness of conviction. You need resolute leadership, and lock-step solidarity.
These MBA woosies haven't slept on hangar floors, haven't slept in cars in snowed in airport parking lots. Haven't driven trucks at night and flown during the day. They haven't stocked shelves at Walmart at night and flown 135 in the day time. They haven't juggled waiting tables and traffic watch, they haven't flown pipe line patrol and balanced turning wrenches in the air force reserve. These guys aren't battle tested. They don't know what it's like to dig in and push all your chips to the middle.
If the company doesn't want to give it back nicely, OK, that's fine. Lets party.
In traditional bargaining, there is "trading"..."give and take." In this kind of bargaining, there is only TAKE. We are just asking, very nicely, and very patiently mind you, for what is ours. We are simply asking for the dignity, career progression, and career expecations, and job security of our profession to be properly restored in proper recognition and reward for us SAVING the airline. Not just one airline mind you, but two separate airlines.
With out the CAL and UAL concessions neither airline would have been in a positon to survive much less thrive. We, the pilots made it possible for both airlines to rise above and be in a position for a merger of equals and the concessions we took, should be re-paid. O
Our carrots were stolen from us shortly after 9-11 and the sticks were all shoved up our arse. So, We can re-use the old carrot and sticks if we need to, but in reality, we've done all the groveling and begging we need to do.
Any mandate for a carrot and stick approach by the pilots is an insult to the concessions we took and delivered on a silver platter. FUTIB, FUPM, FUIWIB.
12-01-2019 | 06:31 PM
#115
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,032
Likes: 18
Here's the deal...….Remember after 9 11 concessionary contract...Remember what management said. Both CAL and UAL...
"We just need these temporary concessions until we get back on our feet."
In reality, no carrot and stick required.
Just hold firm. Our demands are reasonable and consistent with the mindset and goal of "taking it back."
You don't need a carrot and stick to take back what you already had. You just need firmness of conviction. You need resolute leadership, and lock-step solidarity.
These MBA woosies haven't slept on hangar floors, haven't slept in cars in snowed in airport parking lots. Haven't driven trucks at night and flown during the day. They haven't stocked shelves at Walmart at night and flown 135 in the day time. They haven't juggled waiting tables and traffic watch, they haven't flown pipe line patrol and balanced turning wrenches in the air force reserve. These guys aren't battle tested. They don't know what it's like to dig in and push all your chips to the middle.
If the company doesn't want to give it back nicely, OK, that's fine. Lets party.
In traditional bargaining, there is "trading"..."give and take." In this kind of bargaining, there is only TAKE. We are just asking, very nicely, and very patiently mind you, for what is ours. We are simply asking for the dignity, career progression, and career expecations, and job security of our profession to be properly restored in proper recognition and reward for us SAVING the airline. Not just one airline mind you, but two separate airlines.
With out the CAL and UAL concessions neither airline would have been in a positon to survive much less thrive. We, the pilots made it possible for both airlines to rise above and be in a position for a merger of equals and the concessions we took, should be re-paid. O
Our carrots were stolen from us shortly after 9-11 and the sticks were all shoved up our arse. So, We can re-use the old carrot and sticks if we need to, but in reality, we've done all the groveling and begging we need to do.
Any mandate for a carrot and stick approach by the pilots is an insult to the concessions we took and delivered on a silver platter. FUTIB, FUPM, FUIWIB.
"We just need these temporary concessions until we get back on our feet."
In reality, no carrot and stick required.
Just hold firm. Our demands are reasonable and consistent with the mindset and goal of "taking it back."
You don't need a carrot and stick to take back what you already had. You just need firmness of conviction. You need resolute leadership, and lock-step solidarity.
These MBA woosies haven't slept on hangar floors, haven't slept in cars in snowed in airport parking lots. Haven't driven trucks at night and flown during the day. They haven't stocked shelves at Walmart at night and flown 135 in the day time. They haven't juggled waiting tables and traffic watch, they haven't flown pipe line patrol and balanced turning wrenches in the air force reserve. These guys aren't battle tested. They don't know what it's like to dig in and push all your chips to the middle.
If the company doesn't want to give it back nicely, OK, that's fine. Lets party.
In traditional bargaining, there is "trading"..."give and take." In this kind of bargaining, there is only TAKE. We are just asking, very nicely, and very patiently mind you, for what is ours. We are simply asking for the dignity, career progression, and career expecations, and job security of our profession to be properly restored in proper recognition and reward for us SAVING the airline. Not just one airline mind you, but two separate airlines.
With out the CAL and UAL concessions neither airline would have been in a positon to survive much less thrive. We, the pilots made it possible for both airlines to rise above and be in a position for a merger of equals and the concessions we took, should be re-paid. O
Our carrots were stolen from us shortly after 9-11 and the sticks were all shoved up our arse. So, We can re-use the old carrot and sticks if we need to, but in reality, we've done all the groveling and begging we need to do.
Any mandate for a carrot and stick approach by the pilots is an insult to the concessions we took and delivered on a silver platter. FUTIB, FUPM, FUIWIB.
12-02-2019 | 03:41 AM
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
We already have provisions in the contract for more RJ flying. If they want more flying, they have always been able to do it. I don’t see the problem here or why we’d have to give up anything at all. This isn’t a “give” contract. Its a “take” contract.
12-02-2019 | 05:05 AM
#117
New Hire
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Agreed. Unfortunately after hearing Kirby speak in person and talking to a rep, I think that any possible TA will not look like Scope Choke anymore. Rather, it will be called “SKope”, with emphasis on the initials S.K.
12-02-2019 | 06:12 AM
#118
Banned
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,358
Likes: 0
The verbiage could potentially change, but not the desired end result. They could potentially lift the different type NB requirement and allow a few more big rj’s, but put a very severely reduced limit on the total number of rj’s allowed in the system. Something to the effect of reducing the regional fleet by 5 or more jets for every 76 seater added up to a limit. If they added the 70 or so jets that buying an additional NB type would free up, they would have to reduce the total regional fleet by 350+ aircraft. This would also have to be tied to additional mainline aircraft and have a severe reduction in the number of allowable rj’s if our fleet shrinks for any reason. Just guessing and thinking outside of the box. At the end of the day any change in scope is up to us. If it changes, it is because we vote for it.
12-02-2019 | 06:33 AM
#119
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,112
Likes: 0
From: SFO Guppy CA
This is a negotiation, so by definition both parties have to come to an agreement. I think that is where we are now. We are not willing to agree to concessions on scope and because of that, the Company is not willing to agree to what we want. As I've said before, EVERYTHING in our CBA has a price. Everything that the Company wants has a cost. Same goes with us. We are in a stalemate until one party blinks. If we caved on scope, we would probably have an AIP inside of a month. I for one am not willing to pay that price!!! The cost is too high!!!
12-02-2019 | 07:09 AM
#120
Banned
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,358
Likes: 0
This is a negotiation, so by definition both parties have to come to an agreement. I think that is where we are now. We are not willing to agree to concessions on scope and because of that, the Company is not willing to agree to what we want. As I've said before, EVERYTHING in our CBA has a price. Everything that the Company wants has a cost. Same goes with us. We are in a stalemate until one party blinks. If we caved on scope, we would probably have an AIP inside of a month. I for one am not willing to pay that price!!! The cost is too high!!!
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