Completely agree. Will mitigate the need for furloughs and bring industry leading pay back for the smaller aircraft.

Win-Win.

 

Good words! :Why have we done a disastrous job? That's my question. How did this occur?

I just got finished watching the Colgon 3407 video. John Prater, former ALPA President had some interesting words. Keep in mind the big growth of the RJ industry and the out-sourcing of mainline flying occured under his "leadership." Recall further that the goal of the mainline carrier is to "shed costs". Instead of putting up a hand and saying "stop the insanity" ALPA, under Prater, just waived the industry along.

We didn't say STOP this madness. At the time of Colgan 3407 in Feb 2009, an RJ copilot made 16k a year. Rewind to when I was an EMB-120 Co-pilot at Continental Express, I made 13.8 a year in 1994. Insane. Mainline management's want to compete with discount carriers like JB and SWA. Their answer is to sub out the flying to the lowest bidder.

Read the research paper by someone who doesn't have a dog in the fight....

"Pilots working at major airlines are thwarting the growth of regional jets because they see them as a direct threat to their jobs. As shown earlier regional jets have created new routes, but have also replaced or supplemented traditional jet routes, taking jobs away from traditional jet pilots. In addition, traditional jet pilots can assume that they would have flown on some of the new routes created by incoming regional jets [19]. Finally, since most major airlines pay pilots based on the size of the aircraft they fly, the popularity of new smaller aircraft threatens not only their jobs, but their salaries as well. As a result, major airline pilots have fought back with scope clauses."

"Currently both Embraer and Bombardier are building larger regional jets, which can be seen in Figure 31. These new airplanes seat between 70 and 110 passengers, which means that the line between regional jets and narrow body traditional jets will blur further. Embraer believes that there is a capacity gap in the market and that the new 70 to 110 seat aircraft will help to fill that gap [23]. This new size of regional jets will further change the composition and performance range of the national fleet, making the future unclear. In addition, it was mentioned in chapter 4 that regional jets are most likely being sold at a discount or with highly favorable financing. If Embraer and Bombardier stop offering deals to stimulate the purchase of regional jets, the operational cost of these aircraft compared with narrow body jets will increase even further."

Source: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/bcf...a47a7a5b4d.pdf

Take-away: Pilots use the tools they have in their tool belt to fight back against management. We currently use "SCOPE language" to both protect our revenue stream and the integrity of the career. The union is in charge of negotiating this scope language. It can negotiate ultra strong scope language to squeeze out and squash the RJ industry, or it can negotiate softer/kinder/gentler language that allows it both survive and thrive. Most mainline pilots want bullet proof scope language that ALPA is willing to go to war on. It could be another bloody civil war. Would ALPA go to war against itself to enforce the scope language? I think not. There in lies the ultimate conflict of interest.

 

Did we give away this flying, or was it forcefully taken away from us? As one posted suggested "we gave it away." I wonder if the truth will prevail. The flying wasn't given away, it was negotiated away. Who negotiated it away? Which MEC or MEC's will hold firm? one or all of them? Who controls the agenda of the MEC's big and small? The RJ manufacturing industry is not unlike Airbus. Free airplanes (or almost free). It's all incentivized. Flying to the lowest bidder. It's like Dire Straits..... Get your money for nothing and your chicks for free. At the end of the day nothings free. There's a cost. but hey, the institutional investor and the manager with stock options gets to be a winner!

 

I guess we could find a support group for you... "As simple as can be stated: the fact is that NOTHING any regional pilot group negotiates with their management affects ANYTHING to do with scope of what’s already been negotiated by mainline pilots."

We see some routes flown by both main line and regional carriers. IAH to MSY? So that's debunked for sure. I've got a an entire list of routes that have both RJ's and mainline jets on them. Just ask those dudes who have spent 30 years at Express how they are liking it? I just disputed your so-called indisputable statement. I just love absolutes.... let's write a resolution shall we? where to, how for, how to, there fore, there fore be it resolved. Therefore be it further resolved. Reminds me of that movie with Tom Cruise and that lil hottie Demi Moore....i object.....No, I strenuously object. Maybe, if you strenuously object and say That's the Fact Jack. ..That'l probably have the desired effect.....

If a mainline pilot says "we're taking it back, or we're un-scoping what was scoped out, or we're taking our flying back, or any set of words that mean the same thing that will indeed have an effect on not only what a regional MEC can negotiate, but in practice limits the size and the depth of the sand-box they are allowed to play in.

When a mainline pilot says "we need to take back what was taken from us under the threat of bankruptcy or liquidity shortfall they are referring to money, retirement, and earning potential. Intrinsically interwoven in this discussion is route and route authority.

if there is only 100 percent of anything to be divided and subdivided, it doesn't take a math savant to discover taking back 50% of an industry that was strong-arm scoped away by your own pilot union is going to be anything short of a fight. Both internally within your union there are going to be disagreements, and externally with both mainline and regional management's there will be disagreement.

The smart regional pilot will ask himself one question: is it better for me to make 250 dollars an hour at mainline, or make 60 dollars an hour at regional x?

Just poll the mainline pilots............Like JG Wentworth says............"It's your money!"

 

The difference between perception and fact is about 90%. You don't have a monopoly of facts, or the definition of the word fact. You remind me of Bill Clinton......."It depends on what the definition of the word IS is". Really... What's next "cow tippin?"

if you say the word "fact fourteen thousand four hundred and forty four the only thing we'll learn is that you can say the word fact. The simple fact is this: your facts don't square with my facts, or history's facts, or the industry's history of facts, or the body of truth we know to comprise the majority of the facts. i'll take facts for 200 hundred Alex. I'll take subjectivity for 400 alex. I'll take objectivity fort the daily double.

 

nope....I am advocating for the INDUSTRY, iE regional industry, not just one pilot group, but their actual, and legitimate craft and class to negotiate for themselves. Not regional carrier 1, or regional carrier 5. Just the regional airline pilots association. Whomever wants to be a part of that powerful lobby. After all, the regional industry accounts for 52% of commercial flying today.

The other 48% of the scraps that are left over currently goes to mainline carriers. It's messed up!

No one told the mainline pilots that their "tranche of flying" was going to go from 85% to 48%. Maybe a little truth in advertising would be in order. Time to take back our "tranche"

Heck, I get it. the regional s have been doing great at whittling away our flying while building up their industry and on our backs and with our dues money. I totally get it. I wouldn't want that gravy train to stop either.

ALPA needs to start doing its job and represent mainline pilots first. if we can't carve off the regionals, then we need to be smarter in how we give out resources. Not smart to pay for negotiations that work against you.

Before there was a post 9-11 regional industry and before the modern day RJ, ALPA represented pilots who flew the DC-9 and the 737 200. The RJ has been around for a long time. But, they were flown by mainline pilots that had a career path, who one day became 747 Captains. Time for mainline dues to champion mainline priorities for the short and long term interests of the profession.

 

Amen Homie !!

 

we make 1/3rd to 1/5th of what a mainline pilot makes under worse working conditions, that hardly qualifies as a "gravy train". Most of us would like to see the flying return if it meant we'd have a position there as well. Everyone is just trying to survive and make the best of a bad situation and hopefully not for an inordinate ammount of time.

I personally think the 50/70/76 seat could return to mainline and pilots would have an extended probation period to vet for personality/airmanship defects and perhaps 3 yrs service before moving to the general fleet. Pay them 30 percent more than they make now and reduce costs through redundancy in OCC and such.

Or alternatively, a "regional airline pilots association", like you suggested.

 

I’ve met Mr Johnson many many years ago. But if this is what he is saying, he is wrong. That doesn’t take away from anything he’s done or the knowledge he has in the industry. But I would guess he is being misinterpreted.

This is not about what other pilots feel or want. If a poll says that a majority of people feel that the sky is purple, it doesn’t make it so. This whole “conflict of interest” thing that pilots have is the single biggest misconception in the entire industry. And that’s putting it extremely lightly!

Yes, mainline pilots haven’t done the best at limiting RJ flying (for varied if reasons). But once mainline pilots have negotiated that scope, there is nothing any regional pilot group can negotiate with their regional management that will change what mainline pilots have already negotiated. And that’s why it’s NOT a conflict of interest.

There is NOTHING a regional pilot group can EVER negotiate that will change mainline pilot scope. It’s as simple as that. And since that is a true statement, there isn’t competing interests between the two, and therefore no conflict of interest.

 

Here is an example regarding these 70-100 seat jets.

Right now, scope clauses don’t allow anybody other than mainline pilots to fly aircraft of 100 seats. A regional pilot group can, if they wanted to waste time, negotiate pay rates and work rules for a 100 seat aircraft. What does that do to mainline pilot scope? Absolutely nothing.

Now, if a mainline pilot group negotiated away their 100 seat scope, that’s entirely up to them. No regional pilot group could compel or otherwise force them to do that.

But if they did negotiate that scope away, it’s their prerogative. If they do that, their management would put that 100 seat aircraft flying up for bid to regional airlines. The lowest regional airline bid wins. Then that regional airline management would enter into negotiations with that regional pilot group for pay rates.

So in one instance, regional pilot groups cannot change mainline scope even if they negotiated pay rates for 100 seat aircraft. In the next instance, mainline pilots can negotiate to keep that 100 seat aircraft and the regional pilot groups couldn’t do anything about it. In the last instance, if mainline pilots negotiated away 100 seat flying, then and only then, would a regional pilot group ever get to truly negotiate for 100 seat pay rates. But that only happens AFTER mainline pilots negotiate their scope. Only mainline pilots can change their scope, regardless of any regional.

At the beginning, all flying under the mainline brand is “owned” by mainline pilots. It’s mainline pilots negotiations that have created RJs and regional airlines. At that point, they’ve ceded their rights to that flying and created a whole new segment of the industry which now negotiates for rates of pay, work rules, benefits, etc for the flying.

You can’t have a RJ airline until mainline pilots give that flying up. Regional flying always becomes after mainline creates it. It doesn’t exist unless mainline pilots decide for it to exist. Only mainline pilots can make it go away (insource) but not the other way around.