SK wants Concessions
05-29-2020 | 01:01 PM
#91
Banned
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,629
Likes: 0
From: 756 Left Side
No need for this crazy displacement process? Just let the company force guys onto SRLs?
This crazy process you speak of was designed to make it difficult and expensive for the company. Giving the company the right to force people onto an SRL is a slippery slope that we don't want to find ourself on.
Sorry, but the contract is for our protection and not to be opened up to make the company more competitive. Not my problem if the company wants to hang on to the backside of the curve. They manage we fly. No concessions.
This crazy process you speak of was designed to make it difficult and expensive for the company. Giving the company the right to force people onto an SRL is a slippery slope that we don't want to find ourself on.
Sorry, but the contract is for our protection and not to be opened up to make the company more competitive. Not my problem if the company wants to hang on to the backside of the curve. They manage we fly. No concessions.
I TOTALLY get that the way the displacement bid process is designed, it is very costly and time consuming to the company.. but also to the pilot group. Hell, look at all the Threads and discussions going on about it. And I would bet the union and specifically the Reps are inundated with email, text and calls.
I get that it.
As far as SRL's and the company 'assigning' them. Yes, it may be a slippery slope. But I would like you to answer this-
Why is it in the contract?
Furloughing ANY pilot should be the last resort...
In Between, we have the displacement process and we have SRL's which have since be modified into ESRL's (which is more or a slippery slope than 20-Q-8, in my opinion)
Of course SK and management want concessions. Who wouldn't?!
I agree that "concessions" should be off the table. But I would argue that giving pilots 60 hrs of pay per month for 4 months and then no pay for the 5th month was a concession right there.
There were already two options to choose from-
Reserve with min guarantee of 73 hrs or
SRL's with 50 hrs.
Why wasn't the offer - 5 months off with 50hrs and we'll know more in Oct?
These are good discussions to have.. cause at some point, we (line pilots) will probably have some sort of offer from the company to the union with regards to an Early Retirement Program and also some sort of furlough mitigation plan.
I can not speak about Legacy United.. but we did have these discussions at Continental before our Furlough and while the big one was voted down (Giving up JV rights..) we did come up with that job sharing program.
Anyways..
Be Well, Stay Healthy
Motch
05-29-2020 | 01:20 PM
#92
Banned
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 657
Likes: 0
From: B-737 Captain
Poss..
I TOTALLY get that the way the displacement bid process is designed, it is very costly and time consuming to the company.. but also to the pilot group. Hell, look at all the Threads and discussions going on about it. And I would bet the union and specifically the Reps are inundated with email, text and calls.
I get that it.
As far as SRL's and the company 'assigning' them. Yes, it may be a slippery slope. But I would like you to answer this-
Why is it in the contract?
Furloughing ANY pilot should be the last resort...
In Between, we have the displacement process and we have SRL's which have since be modified into ESRL's (which is more or a slippery slope than 20-Q-8, in my opinion)
Of course SK and management want concessions. Who wouldn't?!
I agree that "concessions" should be off the table. But I would argue that giving pilots 60 hrs of pay per month for 4 months and then no pay for the 5th month was a concession right there.
There were already two options to choose from-
Reserve with min guarantee of 73 hrs or
SRL's with 50 hrs.
Why wasn't the offer - 5 months off with 50hrs and we'll know more in Oct?
These are good discussions to have.. cause at some point, we (line pilots) will probably have some sort of offer from the company to the union with regards to an Early Retirement Program and also some sort of furlough mitigation plan.
I can not speak about Legacy United.. but we did have these discussions at Continental before our Furlough and while the big one was voted down (Giving up JV rights..) we did come up with that job sharing program.
Anyways..
Be Well, Stay Healthy
Motch
I TOTALLY get that the way the displacement bid process is designed, it is very costly and time consuming to the company.. but also to the pilot group. Hell, look at all the Threads and discussions going on about it. And I would bet the union and specifically the Reps are inundated with email, text and calls.
I get that it.
As far as SRL's and the company 'assigning' them. Yes, it may be a slippery slope. But I would like you to answer this-
Why is it in the contract?
Furloughing ANY pilot should be the last resort...
In Between, we have the displacement process and we have SRL's which have since be modified into ESRL's (which is more or a slippery slope than 20-Q-8, in my opinion)
Of course SK and management want concessions. Who wouldn't?!
I agree that "concessions" should be off the table. But I would argue that giving pilots 60 hrs of pay per month for 4 months and then no pay for the 5th month was a concession right there.
There were already two options to choose from-
Reserve with min guarantee of 73 hrs or
SRL's with 50 hrs.
Why wasn't the offer - 5 months off with 50hrs and we'll know more in Oct?
These are good discussions to have.. cause at some point, we (line pilots) will probably have some sort of offer from the company to the union with regards to an Early Retirement Program and also some sort of furlough mitigation plan.
I can not speak about Legacy United.. but we did have these discussions at Continental before our Furlough and while the big one was voted down (Giving up JV rights..) we did come up with that job sharing program.
Anyways..
Be Well, Stay Healthy
Motch
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/28/delt...el-demand.html
05-29-2020 | 01:21 PM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Poss..
I TOTALLY get that the way the displacement bid process is designed, it is very costly and time consuming to the company.. but also to the pilot group. Hell, look at all the Threads and discussions going on about it. And I would bet the union and specifically the Reps are inundated with email, text and calls.
I get that it.
As far as SRL's and the company 'assigning' them. Yes, it may be a slippery slope. But I would like you to answer this-
Why is it in the contract?
Furloughing ANY pilot should be the last resort...
In Between, we have the displacement process and we have SRL's which have since be modified into ESRL's (which is more or a slippery slope than 20-Q-8, in my opinion)
Of course SK and management want concessions. Who wouldn't?!
I agree that "concessions" should be off the table. But I would argue that giving pilots 60 hrs of pay per month for 4 months and then no pay for the 5th month was a concession right there.
There were already two options to choose from-
Reserve with min guarantee of 73 hrs or
SRL's with 50 hrs.
Why wasn't the offer - 5 months off with 50hrs and we'll know more in Oct?
These are good discussions to have.. cause at some point, we (line pilots) will probably have some sort of offer from the company to the union with regards to an Early Retirement Program and also some sort of furlough mitigation plan.
I can not speak about Legacy United.. but we did have these discussions at Continental before our Furlough and while the big one was voted down (Giving up JV rights..) we did come up with that job sharing program.
Anyways..
Be Well, Stay Healthy
Motch
I TOTALLY get that the way the displacement bid process is designed, it is very costly and time consuming to the company.. but also to the pilot group. Hell, look at all the Threads and discussions going on about it. And I would bet the union and specifically the Reps are inundated with email, text and calls.
I get that it.
As far as SRL's and the company 'assigning' them. Yes, it may be a slippery slope. But I would like you to answer this-
Why is it in the contract?
Furloughing ANY pilot should be the last resort...
In Between, we have the displacement process and we have SRL's which have since be modified into ESRL's (which is more or a slippery slope than 20-Q-8, in my opinion)
Of course SK and management want concessions. Who wouldn't?!
I agree that "concessions" should be off the table. But I would argue that giving pilots 60 hrs of pay per month for 4 months and then no pay for the 5th month was a concession right there.
There were already two options to choose from-
Reserve with min guarantee of 73 hrs or
SRL's with 50 hrs.
Why wasn't the offer - 5 months off with 50hrs and we'll know more in Oct?
These are good discussions to have.. cause at some point, we (line pilots) will probably have some sort of offer from the company to the union with regards to an Early Retirement Program and also some sort of furlough mitigation plan.
I can not speak about Legacy United.. but we did have these discussions at Continental before our Furlough and while the big one was voted down (Giving up JV rights..) we did come up with that job sharing program.
Anyways..
Be Well, Stay Healthy
Motch
SRLs are voluntary and that's ok. For some, it fits their lifestyle. Forcing SRLs on dudes and dudettes isn't good. The key word is voluntary.
Hope you're completely recovered from the bug. Be well.
05-29-2020 | 02:12 PM
#94
Line Holder
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
The issue of whether or not to temporarily reduce pay for all to save the jobs of a few is a very interesting moral dilemma. Like everyone else, I come here with opinions and biases. My hope is that I learn something new, something material that could change my opinion. That would be evidence that I have really learned something--which I enjoy doing. And although this thread has nothing to do with me personally, and it would be in good taste to allow the thread to continue on topic without further personalizing it, this simple quote might help answer the question of why, as a non-ual pilot, I post here:
"It is difficult to learn anything worthwhile if you only listen to those who share your views"
--Wayne Trotman
05-29-2020 | 02:53 PM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
The issue of whether or not to temporarily reduce pay for all to save the jobs of a few is a very interesting moral dilemma. Like everyone else, I come here with opinions and biases. My hope is that I learn something new, something material that could change my opinion. That would be evidence that I have really learned something--which I enjoy doing. And although this thread has nothing to do with me personally, and it would be in good taste to allow the thread to continue on topic without further personalizing it, this simple quote might help answer the question of why, as a non-ual pilot, I post here:
"It is difficult to learn anything worthwhile if you only listen to those who share your views"
--Wayne Trotman
"It is difficult to learn anything worthwhile if you only listen to those who share your views"
--Wayne Trotman
05-29-2020 | 04:07 PM
#96
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,512
Likes: 0
From: 787 Captain
The issue of whether or not to temporarily reduce pay for all to save the jobs of a few is a very interesting moral dilemma. Like everyone else, I come here with opinions and biases. My hope is that I learn something new, something material that could change my opinion. That would be evidence that I have really learned something--which I enjoy doing. And although this thread has nothing to do with me personally, and it would be in good taste to allow the thread to continue on topic without further personalizing it, this simple quote might help answer the question of why, as a non-ual pilot, I post here:
"It is difficult to learn anything worthwhile if you only listen to those who share your views"
--Wayne Trotman
"It is difficult to learn anything worthwhile if you only listen to those who share your views"
--Wayne Trotman
The conversation you are trying to drag everyone into serves management purposes so well that i wonder if you're actually a plant? Maybe unwitting? None of us has an obligation to teach you anything new.
05-29-2020 | 05:14 PM
#97
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,213
Likes: 14
From: guppy CA
The issue of whether or not to temporarily reduce pay for all to save the jobs of a few is a very interesting moral dilemma. Like everyone else, I come here with opinions and biases. My hope is that I learn something new, something material that could change my opinion. That would be evidence that I have really learned something--which I enjoy doing. And although this thread has nothing to do with me personally, and it would be in good taste to allow the thread to continue on topic without further personalizing it, this simple quote might help answer the question of why, as a non-ual pilot, I post here:
"It is difficult to learn anything worthwhile if you only listen to those who share your views"
--Wayne Trotman
"It is difficult to learn anything worthwhile if you only listen to those who share your views"
--Wayne Trotman
It is extremely disingenuous of you to state that you're a disinterested third party.
Thanks in advance for discontinuing your uninformed posts.
Just to add another data point for your information gathering, I’ll share thoughts based on my experience with C5 and the Aviate. I chose C5 specifically for the Aviate (previously CPP) opportunity, and I would definitely recommend that path as long as you understand what Aviate is and isn’t before doing it.
Aviate is essentially a guaranteed interview as long as you have the ability to put together a professional application, don’t have major disqualifiers in your past (felony, etc), and have the ability to
follow basic instructions during the application process.
Now, what is a guaranteed interview? It is not a guaranteed job, a preferential path, or any other inside track that gives you an advantage over other candidates; it is a one time opportunity to present yourself and show United why they should hire you. The four hours you spend with them is what you have worked your entire career for. This is your one chance to earn your career dream job. Based on what I’ve seen, I believe the acceptance rate of those who treated it in this way has been very high.
The big question in placing a value on Aviate for you personally is “how valuable is a guaranteed interview”? This will be different for everyone, but for me it was a no-brainer. As a reference, many folks have spent many many years trying to get an opportunity to interview before they get their chance. And I’m some cases, folks have spent decades trying and have never received the call.
Also, please keep in mind as you use this forum as an information-gathering tool that the opinions shared here vary greatly due to the personal experiences, histories, and profiles of the posters—experiences, histories and profiles that may or may not correlate to you and your likelihood of success.
Good luck on your journey, and much success to you 🥂
Aviate is essentially a guaranteed interview as long as you have the ability to put together a professional application, don’t have major disqualifiers in your past (felony, etc), and have the ability to
follow basic instructions during the application process.
Now, what is a guaranteed interview? It is not a guaranteed job, a preferential path, or any other inside track that gives you an advantage over other candidates; it is a one time opportunity to present yourself and show United why they should hire you. The four hours you spend with them is what you have worked your entire career for. This is your one chance to earn your career dream job. Based on what I’ve seen, I believe the acceptance rate of those who treated it in this way has been very high.
The big question in placing a value on Aviate for you personally is “how valuable is a guaranteed interview”? This will be different for everyone, but for me it was a no-brainer. As a reference, many folks have spent many many years trying to get an opportunity to interview before they get their chance. And I’m some cases, folks have spent decades trying and have never received the call.
Also, please keep in mind as you use this forum as an information-gathering tool that the opinions shared here vary greatly due to the personal experiences, histories, and profiles of the posters—experiences, histories and profiles that may or may not correlate to you and your likelihood of success.
Good luck on your journey, and much success to you 🥂
05-29-2020 | 06:15 PM
#98
Line Holder
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
No, the reason you post here is because you're at CommutAir and in the Aviate program. You want to get hired at mainline as soon as possible and you're hoping to influence mainline pilots to take a very bad deal because you think it will advance your self-interests. Please stick to learning the profession and stop offering half baked solutions for problems you're as of yet unable to grasp.
It is extremely disingenuous of you to state that you're a disinterested third party.
Thanks in advance for discontinuing your uninformed posts.
It is extremely disingenuous of you to state that you're a disinterested third party.
Thanks in advance for discontinuing your uninformed posts.
If you don't agree with what I'm saying, disagree with me and explain why. If I am incorrect in what I am saying, correct me. But don't stoop to hurling personal attacks and trying to discredit me personally because you don't like what I'm saying. Come on guys...
Thanks to those who have shared intelligent, merit-based responses.
05-29-2020 | 08:20 PM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,246
Likes: 0
From: WB Bunkie
I think the consistent concern by those who are willing to entertain a temporary lowering of MPG, is that the common refrain:
”I don’t know how they’ll screw us, but they will.”
is clearly not well thought out. In it,
fear and skepticism are dress up as wisdom. Categorical and Unexamined thought is never wise.
we’ve all been burned by the corruption of crony capitalism and unbelievable bias of courts against labor, but the thing at stake herE is your fellow united pilots’ jobs. The argument isn’t for payroll savings, it for concrete block hours.
if our union crafted an LOA for temporary MPG change, then its part of the UPA. If we are in a position where are UPA is being abrogated, there are MUCH worse things to worry about than MPG.
retirement contributions, pay rates, furloughs out of seniority, reneged moving expenses, do I need to go on? If the whole contract is up for grabs, I’m not super worried about only flying 60 hours in October and January, I’m TERRIFIED that my job as I know it is over. So this slippery slope argument is not based in reason, it’s based in fear. Perhaps Fear that management is once again playing chess while we play checkers, or that the same people who become federal judges probably belong to the same country clubs as our executive leadership.
Whatever the fear, it’s obvious that the reasons against a temporary LOA are based on what-ifs and worst case scenarios. The reasons for it are here now and there will be a fixed amount of block hours to be divided up among X amount of pilots.
when the union leadership comes down with their decision, after hopefully examining the options thoroughly, i won’t Monday-morning-QB it. But while the decision is still out there to be made, anyone who advocates that we don’t discuss this and formulate our OWN opinions is not anyone I can respect. I support our union’s decisions, but I would never encourage anyone to allow another to think for them.
”I don’t know how they’ll screw us, but they will.”
is clearly not well thought out. In it,
fear and skepticism are dress up as wisdom. Categorical and Unexamined thought is never wise.
we’ve all been burned by the corruption of crony capitalism and unbelievable bias of courts against labor, but the thing at stake herE is your fellow united pilots’ jobs. The argument isn’t for payroll savings, it for concrete block hours.
if our union crafted an LOA for temporary MPG change, then its part of the UPA. If we are in a position where are UPA is being abrogated, there are MUCH worse things to worry about than MPG.
retirement contributions, pay rates, furloughs out of seniority, reneged moving expenses, do I need to go on? If the whole contract is up for grabs, I’m not super worried about only flying 60 hours in October and January, I’m TERRIFIED that my job as I know it is over. So this slippery slope argument is not based in reason, it’s based in fear. Perhaps Fear that management is once again playing chess while we play checkers, or that the same people who become federal judges probably belong to the same country clubs as our executive leadership.
Whatever the fear, it’s obvious that the reasons against a temporary LOA are based on what-ifs and worst case scenarios. The reasons for it are here now and there will be a fixed amount of block hours to be divided up among X amount of pilots.
when the union leadership comes down with their decision, after hopefully examining the options thoroughly, i won’t Monday-morning-QB it. But while the decision is still out there to be made, anyone who advocates that we don’t discuss this and formulate our OWN opinions is not anyone I can respect. I support our union’s decisions, but I would never encourage anyone to allow another to think for them.
05-29-2020 | 10:52 PM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
From: 757/767
I think the consistent concern by those who are willing to entertain a temporary lowering of MPG, is that the common refrain:
”I don’t know how they’ll screw us, but they will.”
is clearly not well thought out. In it,
fear and skepticism are dress up as wisdom. Categorical and Unexamined thought is never wise.
we’ve all been burned by the corruption of crony capitalism and unbelievable bias of courts against labor, but the thing at stake herE is your fellow united pilots’ jobs. The argument isn’t for payroll savings, it for concrete block hours.
if our union crafted an LOA for temporary MPG change, then its part of the UPA. If we are in a position where are UPA is being abrogated, there are MUCH worse things to worry about than MPG.
retirement contributions, pay rates, furloughs out of seniority, reneged moving expenses, do I need to go on? If the whole contract is up for grabs, I’m not super worried about only flying 60 hours in October and January, I’m TERRIFIED that my job as I know it is over. So this slippery slope argument is not based in reason, it’s based in fear. Perhaps Fear that management is once again playing chess while we play checkers, or that the same people who become federal judges probably belong to the same country clubs as our executive leadership.
Whatever the fear, it’s obvious that the reasons against a temporary LOA are based on what-ifs and worst case scenarios. The reasons for it are here now and there will be a fixed amount of block hours to be divided up among X amount of pilots.
when the union leadership comes down with their decision, after hopefully examining the options thoroughly, i won’t Monday-morning-QB it. But while the decision is still out there to be made, anyone who advocates that we don’t discuss this and formulate our OWN opinions is not anyone I can respect. I support our union’s decisions, but I would never encourage anyone to allow another to think for them.
”I don’t know how they’ll screw us, but they will.”
is clearly not well thought out. In it,
fear and skepticism are dress up as wisdom. Categorical and Unexamined thought is never wise.
we’ve all been burned by the corruption of crony capitalism and unbelievable bias of courts against labor, but the thing at stake herE is your fellow united pilots’ jobs. The argument isn’t for payroll savings, it for concrete block hours.
if our union crafted an LOA for temporary MPG change, then its part of the UPA. If we are in a position where are UPA is being abrogated, there are MUCH worse things to worry about than MPG.
retirement contributions, pay rates, furloughs out of seniority, reneged moving expenses, do I need to go on? If the whole contract is up for grabs, I’m not super worried about only flying 60 hours in October and January, I’m TERRIFIED that my job as I know it is over. So this slippery slope argument is not based in reason, it’s based in fear. Perhaps Fear that management is once again playing chess while we play checkers, or that the same people who become federal judges probably belong to the same country clubs as our executive leadership.
Whatever the fear, it’s obvious that the reasons against a temporary LOA are based on what-ifs and worst case scenarios. The reasons for it are here now and there will be a fixed amount of block hours to be divided up among X amount of pilots.
when the union leadership comes down with their decision, after hopefully examining the options thoroughly, i won’t Monday-morning-QB it. But while the decision is still out there to be made, anyone who advocates that we don’t discuss this and formulate our OWN opinions is not anyone I can respect. I support our union’s decisions, but I would never encourage anyone to allow another to think for them.
I’m likely to get furloughed, and it will stink, but it’s not the end of the world. I’ll take one kick in the jimmies and suck it up until recall. I don’t want the double whammy.
No concessions of any kind.
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