Let's look at this from a simplified model of our merger. Airline C has 50 pilots and pilot X is seniority number 35 (70%). C merges with Airline U which has 60 active pilots and 10 on furlough. A seniority integration based on available seats would integrate X with pilots at his seniority on U's list at 42 producing a seniority of 77/110 (70%) for X. Airline U includes all of their pilots in the integration calculation meaning X is integrated at 49 producing a relative seniority of 84/120 (70%). Problem is that there are still only 110 seats so X is in reality 84/110 (76%). The +/- % in the UAL list proposal counts bodies, not staffing, and the more junior the pilot, the more dramatic the result of changing from a staffing to bodies model. I don't know what Ben's actual numbers are, but the number on the UAL list is a fraction of the actual seniority lost for many of the CAL pilots.

 

I don't think that would fall in the "fair and equitable" definition, even the UAL ISL proposal addresses that factor.

I don't think it will automatically go in our favor...just like I don't think the policy as written will go automatically in UAL's favor.
Contrary to what you might think, I don't want anyone to be screwed over by this ISL, just want it to be fair. Its amazing the extremes that some think are fair.

 

All this bickering.
How about an out of the box solution that protects what each side brought to the merger? The CAL guys like what they brought as do the UAL guys.


-Movement up the seniority depends on who retires.
Prior to each new equipment bid, it is calculated how many LCAL and LUAL retirees there have been. For example: First bid since ISL is 3 months later and 50 CAL retire and O LUAL retire then all LCAL pilots move up 50 numbers and LUAL pilots stay the same. The opposite could be true. Anything ratio in between is calculated as such.
Sure, the list changes over time but each side protects their retirement numbers. Computers and algorithms can make simple work of this...even a monthly basis.

-Protect the flying you expected: Ratio the aircraft bid movement relative to what each side brought to the table. Using simple numbers, e.g.CAL has twice the 737's as UA has A320's. For every NB 737/320 CAP bid, there would be 2 CAL awards for every UAL award. Likewise, since UAL had 3x the 777's, then 3 UAL bids (CAP or FO) for every CAL bid. 747's, (A350) I suppose would have to be fenced off permanently. Each fleet could be calculated in a similar manner.

-Protect bases: Each group had pre merger expectations of their companies bases and no other. If you wanted to move to the other sides legacy base, it would be allowed only if it went unfilled from that legacy carrier. In addition, since seniority for bidding in base is KEY to QWL, if said pilot was awarded that foreign base then he/she would have to bid at the bottom just like the present day hardship rule. Reasonable since the pilot had zero expectation to ever fly out of that base.


The gamble is where new airplanes go or if certain bases grow or decline. If the company sends more aircraft to one sides bases then the other, I suppose that would be a testament on whose network was more economically viable and valuable. Reading all these posts about what each side brought to the merger, I'm sure each group would be willing to stand behind their original network.

 

Yes, but the UAL proposal is "scientific." Anything is "scientific" as long as you are the scientist and you control the variables.

 

Boxer6;
That might have been a decent solution 3 years ago, but unfortunately that genie is out of the bottle. We have aircraft and pilots all over each others bases, and flying. That might be a good quickie solution for USAIR and American.

 

In principle, it sounds good, but in practice it's impossible to pull off.

 

I did have the sarcastic face in my post but why don't you elaborate?

 

Every time I hear a lUal pilot spluttering that their career expectations were to retire as a Widebody Captain (even if they're currently on furlough) I have a flashback to flying at Express with all the Riddle Grads with SJS, all bent out of shape because the airline didn't realize they were "God's Gift to Flying" and we should just get out of their way and give up everything to them.

You may have expected the retire as Widebody Captains, but I know a lot of pilots going far back in history who had their expectations crushed by mergers.

Any ex-Pan Am pilots here care to chime in?

 

Umm...

Pan Am went out of business. If you are referring to the National merger , well that still doesn't fit your post above. United bought Pan Am's Pacific routes. And some of those pilots stayed on as wide body captains at United. So I'm just not getting what you are talking about. Now if you want to talk about destroyed career expectations lets talk about Eastern.....

Why is it your expectation that the UAL side should be the side with a decreased career ? Sounds like some of the arrogance you mentioned above must have rubbed off.

 

And what about frontier? You forget about that? And oh yeah your torque program? Yeah Hoss , your an angel in you own eyes. So what's the deal? Who's groups better? Enjoy your group that's all you have left. Welcome to the New (old)United? Which is it?