Flybynuts,

Sounds plausible to me. Even more, sounds like a leverage point. Anyone know how it was played?

 

Respectfully, your facts fit your paradigm very nicely. But if CAL had no intention of growing, why then did they order & option over 180 aircraft, most of which where placed well before 2008. You forgot to add that many of those orders were delayed during the 2008/9 financial crisis. An even better question is why, if UAL had intended to continue to compete, why didn't they order at least replacement aircraft?

 

Ummmm..... UAL did.

Besides the obvious huge order (and even more options) for 787s and 350s, pre-merger UAL was very publicly shopping for new narrowbodies and sent RFPs to Boeing, Airbus, and Bombardier (C-Series) during 2009-2010. News articles at the time made mention of this, and well as public statements by Tilton and the CFO during the quarterly investor calls (the exact quotes by the CFO have been posted previously on APC.)

For some not-so-obsure reason UAL changed its tune in the spring of 2010.

 

Honest question.....
How long has it been since the L-UAL side (pre, or post MAD) took delivery of a factory new aircraft??

 

2002 or 2003?

UAL took delivery of 777s and 320s after 9/11 since UAL already paid cash for them prior to the attacks so no financing was required. They were subsequently sold and leased back to UAL and/or mortgaged.

FWIW, here's the reference to UAL narrowbody plans that I mentioned in the above post.

 

....Thanx....

 

It really doesn't matter any more ... Like Ben and many others have said, since we now have a UPA, soon will have the award, and shortly have one MEC, unity is much more important than finding an axe to grind .... But ok, if you insist on seeing certain histories as facts to support your view of the world, ok with me. I'll go back to the basics ... If it was your flying, you would be doing it; if your contract protected or gave you that flying, you would be flying it; if your pilots had jobs, they would be flying; if your side had aircraft ordered and delivered; your pilots would be flying them ... It really is that simple ... any other delusional rationalization is just self-fulfilling conspiracy that will never end, and hurt all in the the long run.

I dearly hope the arbs deliver an award that is more unifying than it is polarizing ... But some will never be happy if they continue to live in a past only framed with their perspective ... reality will bite very soon.

 

The LCAL proposal and arguments certainly didn't inform the arbitrators of that path. IMO, regardless of the award, your Merger Committee's arguments and proposal has done more to damage unity than I expected. Platitudes like 'It's just business' will fall on many deaf ears. I have no intention of flogging this rotting horse, but you may want to keep this in mind as you shift into 'unity gear' in the future.

 

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Honest question......

How many factory new aircraft did ATA take delivery of before they realized that they would never be able to make the balloon payments?

Any idiot can go out and buy a bunch of new aircraft. Trying to replace VERY capable 757's with weak 737-900's that can't carry all the passengers out of Hawaii or Denver is just bad business. Those 757's will fly on for DECADES making money for other operators.

We will most likely be in bankruptcy within 5 years taking pay cuts and giving up more scope due to all these new, shiny airplanes.