Quote:
Never forgive and never forget.
No offense, because I've never met you, but you come across as a total a$$ whose opinion (in your mind) is the only one that counts.Originally Posted by Pkcola
Beginning to think the UAL/CAL Merger forum is turning into breeding grounds for scabs and scab wannabe's. Emboldened by the recent FlyingTogether sign in screen picture. Is that about right "shoeless"?Never forgive and never forget.
If the pin is all you need to see, then you've already been played for a fool.
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If the pin is all you need to see, then you've already been played for a fool.
The pin is never used to determine scab status. It's presents shows unity and even scabs to some extent feel the need for unity when it comes to the company. Why else would they want to wear an ALPA pin?Originally Posted by OnCenterline
No offense, because I've never met you, but you come across as a total a$$ whose opinion (in your mind) is the only one that counts.If the pin is all you need to see, then you've already been played for a fool.
As far as the scabs go, I look in the book or the CAL picture database to determine which category they belong. The database, put together by our CAL brothers, leaves no doubt to the identity of those they determined to be scabs.
I am familiar with a lot of unions. My father worked in the shipyards as a welder and a pipe fitter for 30 years., He worked in steel mills and aluminum smelter plants. He was also in Korea and Vietnam. I know a few things about solidarity and service.
My father never wore a union pin on the job and never wore one to a union meeting. The guys on his shift knew him and knew squarely where he stood on the issues. He kept his mouth shut unless it was to provide something that was either needed or requested. He spoke softly and carried a lead pipe. I've seen more lock outs and strikes than I can count.
The point is this: A union pin is just an ornament. It is patently useless unless you have the respect of your peers that goes with it. But, this is just a job, and nothing to get all spun up over. I don't talk about the job at home and with my family. They just want to know that the pay check will be on time. If the union needs me to do something I will be there to support my fellow pilots.
The pin is sort of cheapened in it's meaning over the years. ALPA gives pins to scabs and non scabs. We have dues paying members in good standing wearing pins (that is fine), we have agency shop people wearing pins, and we even have religious objectors wearing pins. ALPA has "forgiven" some scabs and not others. I don't get it. That to me is the real problem. ALPA has put out some mixed messages on this, so I tend to look for other reasons or character traits that define what a person is rather than a cheap 17 cent pin. Another view is this: If everyone at the airline cannot wear a pin due to ALPA policy, or UAL MEC policy, then we need to find another vehicle.
I've seen how UAL scabs are treated. I do get it! And I certainly don't want to ever have to go through any similar treatment. I've been in a weather room and watched the gong show. There is some serious bad blood there and I do get it. But, I am not sure how you guys can work together "safely". I've never been on one of your jump seats to see a mixed crew (UAL scab and ALPA member), but I'd bet it is something to see.
On the bright side, one day in the near future all of the scabs will be retired, and perhaps then, we can look at something else besides a tie to see if someone is "unified." I do have a one tie tac rule for me. I think wearing too many pins looks like you are a cheap pimp from New Orleans.
My father's view on unionism is one I share as well. Be there, but be quiet about it. Don't be too flashy and walk the line when it is your turn. Save up for a rainy day: (strike fund) is a personal responsibility. Don't get cozy with management and don't pretend that your boss is your friend. He will cut your nuts in a New York second to save his own job.
My father never wore a union pin on the job and never wore one to a union meeting. The guys on his shift knew him and knew squarely where he stood on the issues. He kept his mouth shut unless it was to provide something that was either needed or requested. He spoke softly and carried a lead pipe. I've seen more lock outs and strikes than I can count.
The point is this: A union pin is just an ornament. It is patently useless unless you have the respect of your peers that goes with it. But, this is just a job, and nothing to get all spun up over. I don't talk about the job at home and with my family. They just want to know that the pay check will be on time. If the union needs me to do something I will be there to support my fellow pilots.
The pin is sort of cheapened in it's meaning over the years. ALPA gives pins to scabs and non scabs. We have dues paying members in good standing wearing pins (that is fine), we have agency shop people wearing pins, and we even have religious objectors wearing pins. ALPA has "forgiven" some scabs and not others. I don't get it. That to me is the real problem. ALPA has put out some mixed messages on this, so I tend to look for other reasons or character traits that define what a person is rather than a cheap 17 cent pin. Another view is this: If everyone at the airline cannot wear a pin due to ALPA policy, or UAL MEC policy, then we need to find another vehicle.
I've seen how UAL scabs are treated. I do get it! And I certainly don't want to ever have to go through any similar treatment. I've been in a weather room and watched the gong show. There is some serious bad blood there and I do get it. But, I am not sure how you guys can work together "safely". I've never been on one of your jump seats to see a mixed crew (UAL scab and ALPA member), but I'd bet it is something to see.
On the bright side, one day in the near future all of the scabs will be retired, and perhaps then, we can look at something else besides a tie to see if someone is "unified." I do have a one tie tac rule for me. I think wearing too many pins looks like you are a cheap pimp from New Orleans.
My father's view on unionism is one I share as well. Be there, but be quiet about it. Don't be too flashy and walk the line when it is your turn. Save up for a rainy day: (strike fund) is a personal responsibility. Don't get cozy with management and don't pretend that your boss is your friend. He will cut your nuts in a New York second to save his own job.
Quote:
My father never wore a union pin on the job and never wore one to a union meeting. The guys on his shift knew him and knew squarely where he stood on the issues. He kept his mouth shut unless it was to provide something that was either needed or requested. He spoke softly and carried a lead pipe. I've seen more lock outs and strikes than I can count.
The point is this: A union pin is just an ornament. It is patently useless unless you have the respect of your peers that goes with it. But, this is just a job, and nothing to get all spun up over. I don't talk about the job at home and with my family. They just want to know that the pay check will be on time. If the union needs me to do something I will be there to support my fellow pilots.
The pin is sort of cheapened in it's meaning over the years. ALPA gives pins to scabs and non scabs. We have dues paying members in good standing wearing pins (that is fine), we have agency shop people wearing pins, and we even have religious objectors wearing pins. ALPA has "forgiven" some scabs and not others. I don't get it. That to me is the real problem. ALPA has put out some mixed messages on this, so I tend to look for other reasons or character traits that define what a person is rather than a cheap 17 cent pin. Another view is this: If everyone at the airline cannot wear a pin due to ALPA policy, or UAL MEC policy, then we need to find another vehicle.
I've seen how UAL scabs are treated. I do get it! And I certainly don't want to ever have to go through any similar treatment. I've been in a weather room and watched the gong show. There is some serious bad blood there and I do get it. But, I am not sure how you guys can work together "safely". I've never been on one of your jump seats to see a mixed crew (UAL scab and ALPA member), but I'd bet it is something to see.
On the bright side, one day in the near future all of the scabs will be retired, and perhaps then, we can look at something else besides a tie to see if someone is "unified." I do have a one tie tac rule for me. I think wearing too many pins looks like you are a cheap pimp from New Orleans.
My father's view on unionism is one I share as well. Be there, but be quiet about it. Don't be too flashy and walk the line when it is your turn. Save up for a rainy day: (strike fund) is a personal responsibility. Don't get cozy with management and don't pretend that your boss is your friend. He will cut your nuts in a New York second to save his own job.
So, how do you explain the "days" when you feel "funky", as described in your previous diatribe? When you slap a college emblem or a military doohicker or a crucifix on your tie? Is that remaining "quiet" as your old man recommended? You are a piece of work. The veritable "I'll blend in at all costs" type of girl -- go with the flow, whatever it takes, no waves from me -- just cut me a check and I'll wear whatever you want Boss. Pathetic.Originally Posted by baseball
I am familiar with a lot of unions. My father worked in the shipyards as a welder and a pipe fitter for 30 years., He worked in steel mills and aluminum smelter plants. He was also in Korea and Vietnam. I know a few things about solidarity and service.My father never wore a union pin on the job and never wore one to a union meeting. The guys on his shift knew him and knew squarely where he stood on the issues. He kept his mouth shut unless it was to provide something that was either needed or requested. He spoke softly and carried a lead pipe. I've seen more lock outs and strikes than I can count.
The point is this: A union pin is just an ornament. It is patently useless unless you have the respect of your peers that goes with it. But, this is just a job, and nothing to get all spun up over. I don't talk about the job at home and with my family. They just want to know that the pay check will be on time. If the union needs me to do something I will be there to support my fellow pilots.
The pin is sort of cheapened in it's meaning over the years. ALPA gives pins to scabs and non scabs. We have dues paying members in good standing wearing pins (that is fine), we have agency shop people wearing pins, and we even have religious objectors wearing pins. ALPA has "forgiven" some scabs and not others. I don't get it. That to me is the real problem. ALPA has put out some mixed messages on this, so I tend to look for other reasons or character traits that define what a person is rather than a cheap 17 cent pin. Another view is this: If everyone at the airline cannot wear a pin due to ALPA policy, or UAL MEC policy, then we need to find another vehicle.
I've seen how UAL scabs are treated. I do get it! And I certainly don't want to ever have to go through any similar treatment. I've been in a weather room and watched the gong show. There is some serious bad blood there and I do get it. But, I am not sure how you guys can work together "safely". I've never been on one of your jump seats to see a mixed crew (UAL scab and ALPA member), but I'd bet it is something to see.
On the bright side, one day in the near future all of the scabs will be retired, and perhaps then, we can look at something else besides a tie to see if someone is "unified." I do have a one tie tac rule for me. I think wearing too many pins looks like you are a cheap pimp from New Orleans.
My father's view on unionism is one I share as well. Be there, but be quiet about it. Don't be too flashy and walk the line when it is your turn. Save up for a rainy day: (strike fund) is a personal responsibility. Don't get cozy with management and don't pretend that your boss is your friend. He will cut your nuts in a New York second to save his own job.
Quote:
My father never wore a union pin on the job and never wore one to a union meeting. The guys on his shift knew him and knew squarely where he stood on the issues. He kept his mouth shut unless it was to provide something that was either needed or requested. He spoke softly and carried a lead pipe. I've seen more lock outs and strikes than I can count.
The point is this: A union pin is just an ornament. It is patently useless unless you have the respect of your peers that goes with it. But, this is just a job, and nothing to get all spun up over. I don't talk about the job at home and with my family. They just want to know that the pay check will be on time. If the union needs me to do something I will be there to support my fellow pilots.
The pin is sort of cheapened in it's meaning over the years. ALPA gives pins to scabs and non scabs. We have dues paying members in good standing wearing pins (that is fine), we have agency shop people wearing pins, and we even have religious objectors wearing pins. ALPA has "forgiven" some scabs and not others. I don't get it. That to me is the real problem. ALPA has put out some mixed messages on this, so I tend to look for other reasons or character traits that define what a person is rather than a cheap 17 cent pin. Another view is this: If everyone at the airline cannot wear a pin due to ALPA policy, or UAL MEC policy, then we need to find another vehicle.
I've seen how UAL scabs are treated. I do get it! And I certainly don't want to ever have to go through any similar treatment. I've been in a weather room and watched the gong show. There is some serious bad blood there and I do get it. But, I am not sure how you guys can work together "safely". I've never been on one of your jump seats to see a mixed crew (UAL scab and ALPA member), but I'd bet it is something to see.
On the bright side, one day in the near future all of the scabs will be retired, and perhaps then, we can look at something else besides a tie to see if someone is "unified." I do have a one tie tac rule for me. I think wearing too many pins looks like you are a cheap pimp from New Orleans.
My father's view on unionism is one I share as well. Be there, but be quiet about it. Don't be too flashy and walk the line when it is your turn. Save up for a rainy day: (strike fund) is a personal responsibility. Don't get cozy with management and don't pretend that your boss is your friend. He will cut your nuts in a New York second to save his own job.
Ah hum; I wear my pin proudly because it sends a message to management that our group of pilots stand shoulder to shoulder. If you think for one minute that remaining silent and not being flashy with Union pins sends a message to management you are treading water in Lorenzo Kool-aid.Originally Posted by baseball
I am familiar with a lot of unions. My father worked in the shipyards as a welder and a pipe fitter for 30 years., He worked in steel mills and aluminum smelter plants. He was also in Korea and Vietnam. I know a few things about solidarity and service.My father never wore a union pin on the job and never wore one to a union meeting. The guys on his shift knew him and knew squarely where he stood on the issues. He kept his mouth shut unless it was to provide something that was either needed or requested. He spoke softly and carried a lead pipe. I've seen more lock outs and strikes than I can count.
The point is this: A union pin is just an ornament. It is patently useless unless you have the respect of your peers that goes with it. But, this is just a job, and nothing to get all spun up over. I don't talk about the job at home and with my family. They just want to know that the pay check will be on time. If the union needs me to do something I will be there to support my fellow pilots.
The pin is sort of cheapened in it's meaning over the years. ALPA gives pins to scabs and non scabs. We have dues paying members in good standing wearing pins (that is fine), we have agency shop people wearing pins, and we even have religious objectors wearing pins. ALPA has "forgiven" some scabs and not others. I don't get it. That to me is the real problem. ALPA has put out some mixed messages on this, so I tend to look for other reasons or character traits that define what a person is rather than a cheap 17 cent pin. Another view is this: If everyone at the airline cannot wear a pin due to ALPA policy, or UAL MEC policy, then we need to find another vehicle.
I've seen how UAL scabs are treated. I do get it! And I certainly don't want to ever have to go through any similar treatment. I've been in a weather room and watched the gong show. There is some serious bad blood there and I do get it. But, I am not sure how you guys can work together "safely". I've never been on one of your jump seats to see a mixed crew (UAL scab and ALPA member), but I'd bet it is something to see.
On the bright side, one day in the near future all of the scabs will be retired, and perhaps then, we can look at something else besides a tie to see if someone is "unified." I do have a one tie tac rule for me. I think wearing too many pins looks like you are a cheap pimp from New Orleans.
My father's view on unionism is one I share as well. Be there, but be quiet about it. Don't be too flashy and walk the line when it is your turn. Save up for a rainy day: (strike fund) is a personal responsibility. Don't get cozy with management and don't pretend that your boss is your friend. He will cut your nuts in a New York second to save his own job.
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If you think for one minute that wearing a pin worries or somehow influences how executives like Lorenzo think - they have already beaten you.Originally Posted by krudawg
Ah hum; I wear my pin proudly because it sends a message to management that our group of pilots stand shoulder to shoulder. If you think for one minute that remaining silent and not being flashy with Union pins sends a message to management you are treading water in Lorenzo Kool-aid.
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Would you educate the masses on the best ways to demonstrate unity again - hope your not going to use the JP method. He lost that battle to a bunch of ALPA PIN wearing union guys and JP had the inside tract with Jeffy. How was that again?Originally Posted by BMEP100
If you think for one minute that wearing a pin worries or somehow influences how executives like Lorenzo think - they have already beaten you.
You told what your daddy did, now tell us a little of what you'll do. Please!
Hey Staller,
Aren't you a 570? Didn't you get your seniority number by applying for, interviewing for, and accepting a job during a strike?
Unity? Once you were on board, you are all for unity.
Aren't you a 570? Didn't you get your seniority number by applying for, interviewing for, and accepting a job during a strike?
Unity? Once you were on board, you are all for unity.
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You told what your daddy did, now tell us a little of what you'll do. Please!
Pkcola, I don't know if you have ever struck an airline, but I doubt it. I have, and it's very frightening, especially when the mother ship (mine was a wholly-owned) shows up with all of the paperwork to liquidate the operation filled out and ready to go save for a few signatures and a notary stamp.Originally Posted by Pkcola
Would you educate the masses on the best ways to demonstrate unity again - hope your not going to use the JP method. He lost that battle to a bunch of ALPA PIN wearing union guys and JP had the inside tract with Jeffy. How was that again?You told what your daddy did, now tell us a little of what you'll do. Please!
Unity is standing up to them and saying, "No" when they have a cannon to your head.
Unity is not a pin.
Unity is the pilot group as a whole standing up for a contract, but also with the understanding of knowing when to pick your battles.
Unity is not a pin.
Unity--and ALPA has never gotten this--is the having the discipline to say no to the extra money in your contract in exchange for loosening scope clauses.
Unity is not a pin.
Unity is having the fortitude to force the company to embrace brand scope and a true flow, so that every new hire to the airline starts off in the right seat of an RJ and works his way up, because this will stop the outsourcing, the race to the bottom, and force wages up across the board. True unity would be getting our cohorts at DAL and AMR to do the same.
You rant and rave about how great you think ALPA is, and I will be the first to tell you that they have done some good things.
But your obstinate refusal to accept the fact that everyone has a view point colored by their own experience shows gross close-mindedness and immaturity on your part. It's like marriage: some love it, some hate it, some would never do it again, but anyone who has been married for any appreciable period of time would tell you that it isn't what they expected, and no matter who you are, it leaves chinks in the armor. For some, the damage is incalculable, and far outweighs any benefit. Unionism is the same way.
It's clear that you have only had good experiences with ALPA, and that's great. But it's also clear that you simply can't intellectually accept that ALPA can--and will--screw people when it's politically expedient for them to do so. They can, they will, and they have. It is NOT set up to equally represent all of its members.
Here's a hint: if the over-whelming majority of current and former regional pilots feel jaded and cheated by ALPA for the same reasons, the problem isn't just the regional pilots, it's probably ALPA.
The above post is correct: management (in this context, I mean everyone that doesn't actually work in the operation everyday, but does work in an office) doesn't care one iota whether or not you wear your pin, because management doesn't have the physical ability to see 12,000-plus pilots, and when it comes to the internal workings and politics of the union, they care even less. What they do care about is doing their own job of minimizing cost, maximizing profit, getting the flights out, and getting promoted.
Believe it or not, most of them are good people that want to do the right thing, but if they can get a free pass on something in the contract, yes, they'll take it (and often, it's because they just don't understand the contract, which, as you know, is extremely complex). A few--but it's a small few--will outright try and avoid the contract, and it is those that we all have an obligation to stand up to. That is unity. It would also be unity if we walked out in support of another group.
Further, ALPA has sent out very mixed messages about the scabs, because ALPA has voted--including the then-UAL MEC Chair Rick Dubinsky (I hope I spelled that right)--to embrace the CAL pilots back into ALPA, including the scabs. ALPA's position is that we put it all behind us and start over as one group. Now, like you, I find that a bit naive (I was on strike when this occurred, so you can only imagine the emotions that it caused in me). The point is, ALPA sends mixed messages, but the official line is this: we're all in this together, scabs and non-scabs, and if the scab is now a dues paying member, he's a member nonetheless.
But, as I have said before, with a repeal of the RLA, there will not be another strike by an airline in this country, so the battles will have to be from within. The good thing for you is that you will never have to test your mettle with a strike.
