OnCenterline

Pkcola, I don't know if you have ever struck an airline, but I doubt it. I have, and it's very frightening, especially when the mother ship (mine was a wholly-owned) shows up with all of the paperwork to liquidate the operation filled out and ready to go save for a few signatures and a notary stamp.

Unity is standing up to them and saying, "No" when they have a cannon to your head.

Unity is not a pin.

Unity is the pilot group as a whole standing up for a contract, but also with the understanding of knowing when to pick your battles.

Unity is not a pin.

Unity--and ALPA has never gotten this--is the having the discipline to say no to the extra money in your contract in exchange for loosening scope clauses.

Unity is not a pin.

Unity is having the fortitude to force the company to embrace brand scope and a true flow, so that every new hire to the airline starts off in the right seat of an RJ and works his way up, because this will stop the outsourcing, the race to the bottom, and force wages up across the board. True unity would be getting our cohorts at DAL and AMR to do the same.

You rant and rave about how great you think ALPA is, and I will be the first to tell you that they have done some good things.

But your obstinate refusal to accept the fact that everyone has a view point colored by their own experience shows gross close-mindedness and immaturity on your part. It's like marriage: some love it, some hate it, some would never do it again, but anyone who has been married for any appreciable period of time would tell you that it isn't what they expected, and no matter who you are, it leaves chinks in the armor. For some, the damage is incalculable, and far outweighs any benefit. Unionism is the same way.

It's clear that you have only had good experiences with ALPA, and that's great. But it's also clear that you simply can't intellectually accept that ALPA can--and will--screw people when it's politically expedient for them to do so. They can, they will, and they have. It is NOT set up to equally represent all of its members.

Here's a hint: if the over-whelming majority of current and former regional pilots feel jaded and cheated by ALPA for the same reasons, the problem isn't just the regional pilots, it's probably ALPA.

The above post is correct: management (in this context, I mean everyone that doesn't actually work in the operation everyday, but does work in an office) doesn't care one iota whether or not you wear your pin, because management doesn't have the physical ability to see 12,000-plus pilots, and when it comes to the internal workings and politics of the union, they care even less. What they do care about is doing their own job of minimizing cost, maximizing profit, getting the flights out, and getting promoted.

Believe it or not, most of them are good people that want to do the right thing, but if they can get a free pass on something in the contract, yes, they'll take it (and often, it's because they just don't understand the contract, which, as you know, is extremely complex). A few--but it's a small few--will outright try and avoid the contract, and it is those that we all have an obligation to stand up to. That is unity. It would also be unity if we walked out in support of another group.

Further, ALPA has sent out very mixed messages about the scabs, because ALPA has voted--including the then-UAL MEC Chair Rick Dubinsky (I hope I spelled that right)--to embrace the CAL pilots back into ALPA, including the scabs. ALPA's position is that we put it all behind us and start over as one group. Now, like you, I find that a bit naive (I was on strike when this occurred, so you can only imagine the emotions that it caused in me). The point is, ALPA sends mixed messages, but the official line is this: we're all in this together, scabs and non-scabs, and if the scab is now a dues paying member, he's a member nonetheless.

But, as I have said before, with a repeal of the RLA, there will not be another strike by an airline in this country, so the battles will have to be from within. The good thing for you is that you will never have to test your mettle with a strike.

syd111

Do you even work for United?

baseball

We are touching on some of the problems surrounding "the pin"

ALPA leadership, through the years has caused this problem. ALPA defined what the pin used to mean, then changed what it means. ALPA changed policy again and again and therefore the meaning of the pin has changed.

Absolutely no corporate management cares about what ornaments you wear. They already know how many have dues check off. By this and this alone they know how many ball players are on the team.

ALPA needs to figure out what ALPA means today and for the future.

ALPA's inconsistent and incoherent policies and messages have resulted in confusion, especially to those that invested so much and bought the message du jour. The most disenfranchised people I know are ALPA volunteers that sacrificed a heck of allot to do the work and will of ALPA only to see ALPA sell them out. Letter's of Agreement negotiated in the dark of night, Regional Airline policy, Strikes gone bad, Strikes not voted on-but done any way, age 65, Friends of Fred (instructor cadre).

Let's find something besides a pin. Let's tell ALPA what ALPA means. I thought the pilots were on top of the pyramid. If we want ALPA to mean anything and to stand for something then we need to bring back the magic to ALPA. ALPA is just too involved in politics to be consistent regarding the goals of the profession. One big problem we have is we represent competing interests both home and abroad and we pay for those competing interests with the same revenue stream. Why pay for a commuter's contract negotiations which aim to take our flying? I don't understand how that's ethical, much less legal.

Delta pilots aren't happy with ALPA because they feel ALPA has lost its way. Maybe it's because ALPA was too inconsistent regarding policy.

One of the benefits of recalling ALPA reps that have gotten off course is to return stability to the ship. That is really what ALPA needs. Stability to the profession, but moreover, stability to the actual goals of the individual carriers pilot groups, but often times those agenda's compete with one another.....That is a big problem for a National Association.

I am not advocating any recalls, but I've seen them be effective in cases of dishonesty. But the end result was actually a culture shift, which was an unintended consequence.

OnCenterline

I find it interesting that you say that bringing CAL and the CAL scabs back to ALPA was the right thing to do (which I don't totally disagree with), yet you keep harping on the scabs while promoting unity. You need to either accept the scabs and embrace them to truly become a unified group, or continue harping on them for being scabs and stop trying to discuss unity and your precious pin.

As for Dubinksy, he was not the only one to help/advise during the Comair strike, and nor did I say that. My point was that L-UAL voted to bring them back, yet L-UAL pilots are some of the most vicious against the scabs...and most have never had to make that decision, and I assume that includes yourself.

As for me being discontented...nothing could be further from the truth. You won't find a happier employee than myself. I have always dreamt of flying for either CAL or UAL, each for different reasons, and I got the best of both worlds. I came by it honestly, by working my arse off, and not without some sacrifices by myself and my family along the way.

I wonder if you dare mutter the term "RD" to the NWA pilots, esp. the ones that walked in 1998, which no "RD" pilot has ever done.

You've obviously never worked for a regional. I've personally heard reps from ALPA National say that regional pilots should take concessions "because it's the best we can do right now," with promises to "make it up later." The mistake was not in allowing regionals into ALPA. The mistake was not in embracing them and using the collective numbers to improve conditions for everyone, from top to bottom, starting with solid brand scope and minimum pay and work rules. ALPA still condones a race to the bottom in many respects. The mere fact that ALPA regional airlines have pay scales for EMB-170/175/190/195's and CRJ-700/900's that are markedly lower than those in a legacy contract is evidence of that....and only lowers our pay across the board.

I reiterate what I said earlier, and what others have tried to point out: our own past experiences, whether with an airline or not, or whether with ALPA or not, directly affect each of our view points on unions in general and ALPA in particular. For reasons that nobody can understand, you have a hard time accepting that or understanding it. Instead, you carry on about how great you think ALPA is (and, as I have said before, they have done good things), and offer no acceptance of the credibility of others and their experiences, and you tell us how precious that silly tie pin is, all while preaching "unity," but not exactly practicing it.

The union, however, has lost its way, and it simply can not adequately represent all of its members. SWAPA, APA, and IPA all recognize that. I believe in time--and I hope--that a similar sentiment will affect the legacy carriers.

OnCenterline

The fakt dat u kant tipe cohearently tellz me eberyting bout youu tat i kneed to no.

untied

We don't need to embrace the scabs to be unified.

Nobody wants to be unified with the scum of the earth.

Scabs are left out of the equation. They only care about themselves and aren't much good anyway.

The non scabs need to come together. We're the VAST majority.

You are most likely one of them…so I guess I won't convince you.

Shroth

I find it funny when some of my peers, age 30-40 are so anti-scab considering that they were in Kindergarten when the strike happened.

I also find it funny that a lot of them are anti-scab when they were the ones that paid for their training at a lot of the regional airlines in the 1990s. That was like being a modern day scab to me. It hurt the industry and profession just as bad.

I don't care about either item above. I have friends that are very anti-scab and some that paid for their jobs at regionals. I don't hold it against them, you do what you feel you have to do and the world continues. I on the other hand am not anti-scab and I suffered a but through American Eagle so I didn't have to pay for a job. Yes, I will go have dinner with scabs and I don't mind flying with them. It's over.....

For those of you that are paired with a scab and don't want to talk with them for a whole flight or whole trip, go for it. If you want to spend your career upset feel free to, you have that right. But I will be enjoying my trips, enjoying conversation and some free meals and drinks once in a while on the overnight.



In conclusion, don't even talk about it. Talk is cheap. If we ever have a strike, let's see who crosses the line. Then talk about it. Most of you will be amazed at who crosses.

I am Sean Roth, IAH 756 FO and I approved this message.

OnCenterline

Untied, I'm one of the few here that has actually gone on strike, so nice try.

My point was an effort to counter some of Pkcola. You don't need to preach to me the definition of a scab.

My point though, is simply this: ALPA wants us to put behind us the fact that several thousand scabs were on the CAL list when CAL was reintegrated into ALPA in '01 (I believe the number now is around 500, give or take). Pkcola tries to argue that the ALPA tie pin is the ultimate sign of unity. I disagree. The truest sign of unity would be to truly bring the scabs back into the fold, not just taking their money, which is all that ALPA really wants.

I personally can't go that far. Maybe some can, but I cannot. And now that the scab group is so small as a percentage of the combined list, it doesn't matter.

If you're nice, I will let you touch my battle star.

krudawg

You are confused about what is a scab. The term scab means only one thing: crossing a picket line to steal your job. Unfortunately, the scab moniker has been tossed about on these pages for actions unrelated to what actually makes a scab, a scab. Paying for training at a regional airline, is not scab behavior, it is an action of desperation by an individual who is climbing the ladder to an aviation career. The appropriate action would be to "call out the management of these regionals" and put them on notice that charging pilots for their training will not be tolerated and initiate a boycott of labor at these airlines. I would also make it my life's project to insure that no management pilot at these so-called "pay for training" airlines will ever be allowed to wear an ALPA pin and will suffer scorn for aiding and abetting management.

Airhoss

Sean,

Didn't you get removed from these boards not to long ago for being a bad little boy?