Why a Pilot Should Want to Work at UPS
03-28-2015 | 06:49 PM
#81
On Reserve
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 140
Likes: 2
From: Short the Market
For lurkers:
Many bypass for variety of good reasons. Always have. 113 FO's were hired in 1995 or earlier and probably will upgrade at age 64 to get Captain retirement. A total of 383 FO's are bypassing captain at this time to include those with a date of September 2000. Junior UPS Captain in training has a hire date of late September 2000. (14.5 year upgrade)
1995-1998 folks generally took 10-11 years for first available Captain upgrade award.
Parking DC-8, 747, market decline in 2008 and 09 and Age 60 (numerous over 60 S/O's) that contractually displaced back to Captain seat pushing the late 95 and junior Captains group off the Captain seat or required a bid to ANC seat to hold left.
I'm guessing if want first available left seat will be current to "15-16" at current conditions for the 2001 crewmembers. Speculative beyond that as more variables to the equation that renders it 'speculative' presently.
Many bypass for variety of good reasons. Always have. 113 FO's were hired in 1995 or earlier and probably will upgrade at age 64 to get Captain retirement. A total of 383 FO's are bypassing captain at this time to include those with a date of September 2000. Junior UPS Captain in training has a hire date of late September 2000. (14.5 year upgrade)
1995-1998 folks generally took 10-11 years for first available Captain upgrade award.
Parking DC-8, 747, market decline in 2008 and 09 and Age 60 (numerous over 60 S/O's) that contractually displaced back to Captain seat pushing the late 95 and junior Captains group off the Captain seat or required a bid to ANC seat to hold left.
I'm guessing if want first available left seat will be current to "15-16" at current conditions for the 2001 crewmembers. Speculative beyond that as more variables to the equation that renders it 'speculative' presently.
How many 757 or airbus jumpseats have we all been on and had the crew turn in their seats and look at us and say, "these schedules are killing me. I'm not gonna make it (to retirement age)"?
And didn't 1354 prove this point? Wasn't that our position to the NTSB? The schedules are killing us.
Is it any wonder that FO's might bypass signing up for this when there is no relief in sight?
03-28-2015 | 08:43 PM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,756
Likes: 0
"So someone can spend 16-18 years at bigbrown and retire with an fo pension. I view the current captain versus fo pension as the secondary B-scale, and it's not very "hidden." I believe the pension should be based on longevity and not the seat."
So UPS has a specific "capt pension" and an "fo pension"? Not something based upon income, age at retirement, and longevity? What would be the difference if you retire at the same age, same length of employment and income, if you had a capt pension as opposed to an fo pension, if you don't mind me asking? If many people are going to be unable to upgrade before retirement, that seems like something the union should negotiate out of the next contract. No delineation between capt/fo pensions.
So UPS has a specific "capt pension" and an "fo pension"? Not something based upon income, age at retirement, and longevity? What would be the difference if you retire at the same age, same length of employment and income, if you had a capt pension as opposed to an fo pension, if you don't mind me asking? If many people are going to be unable to upgrade before retirement, that seems like something the union should negotiate out of the next contract. No delineation between capt/fo pensions.
03-28-2015 | 10:29 PM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,339
Likes: 0
Looks like Rocket B beat me to it...
...
Captain ( or a bypassed Captain) - $3,000 times years and months of service credits accrued by the crewmember (not to exceed thirty (30) years).
First officer - $2,400 times years and months of service credits accrued by the crewmember (not to exceed thirty (30) years). So for those who never upgrade a 20% hit.
Note - if you're an FO for 18 years and captain for 1 week or so, you get the captain pension for the whole duration of your employment. So you need to be a captain for 1+ day to get the captain pension. (at least that's my understanding?)
...
Captain ( or a bypassed Captain) - $3,000 times years and months of service credits accrued by the crewmember (not to exceed thirty (30) years).
First officer - $2,400 times years and months of service credits accrued by the crewmember (not to exceed thirty (30) years). So for those who never upgrade a 20% hit.
Note - if you're an FO for 18 years and captain for 1 week or so, you get the captain pension for the whole duration of your employment. So you need to be a captain for 1+ day to get the captain pension. (at least that's my understanding?)
03-29-2015 | 02:17 AM
#85
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
From: Relaxing
Just a little more to think about, the retirement piece is correct from what I understand. There is currently a 12% "B" fund that is based on your income. Anecdotally, my friends who are UPS captains tell me that they make about 300K while the FOs are a little short of 200K. So there is an immediate 100K incentive to upgrade as well as the ability to hit the IRS cap for defined contribution plans.
For any RJ/MIL pilot trying to decide what to do, go for quality of life first. Money will be fine at all of the majors. If you want to live or are from a UPS domicile, go to UPS. Commuting adds to dissatisfaction at any airline. Good luck.
For any RJ/MIL pilot trying to decide what to do, go for quality of life first. Money will be fine at all of the majors. If you want to live or are from a UPS domicile, go to UPS. Commuting adds to dissatisfaction at any airline. Good luck.
03-29-2015 | 04:40 AM
#86
Tri-tanic operator
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
From: Doggie
Respect your, Vito's, Salty's and other senior (at least to us) pilots' perspectives. I also agree with your $$ analysis. I was merely trying to point out that the pay disparities between then and now aren't as huge as one would think. Eliminating the B scale was a fantastic achievement without a doubt. ...at the very least it corrected a huge error from (a) previous contract(s).
The dissatisfaction here boils down to the fact many of us won't ever upgrade. It's not pessimism but rather realism. Most of us were older when we joined brown compared to the previous groups. I view myself as an optimistic person and as you can see from my previous posts, overall I'm happy here. However I don't foresee ever upgrading here at brown and it stings. Granted I've had plenty of pic flying at a previous gig but the fact this probably is as good as it gets simply sux. A double-whammy - for many of us a permanent fo seat AND because of it we'll also receive a smaller, fo pay based pension. :-(
So someone can spend 16-18 years at bigbrown and retire with an fo pension. I view the current captain versus fo pension as the secondary B-scale, and it's not very "hidden." I believe the pension should be based on longevity and not the seat.
Either way, I and everyone else will be just fine. I simply ask for your understanding that no, we don't necessarily see things the way you do and probably never will. I'd imagine you feel the same way about us.
In unity,
WS
The dissatisfaction here boils down to the fact many of us won't ever upgrade. It's not pessimism but rather realism. Most of us were older when we joined brown compared to the previous groups. I view myself as an optimistic person and as you can see from my previous posts, overall I'm happy here. However I don't foresee ever upgrading here at brown and it stings. Granted I've had plenty of pic flying at a previous gig but the fact this probably is as good as it gets simply sux. A double-whammy - for many of us a permanent fo seat AND because of it we'll also receive a smaller, fo pay based pension. :-(
So someone can spend 16-18 years at bigbrown and retire with an fo pension. I view the current captain versus fo pension as the secondary B-scale, and it's not very "hidden." I believe the pension should be based on longevity and not the seat.
Either way, I and everyone else will be just fine. I simply ask for your understanding that no, we don't necessarily see things the way you do and probably never will. I'd imagine you feel the same way about us.
In unity,
WS
Finally someone else that sees the disparity.
I don't really care about the left seat time either, but a 20% reduction in retirement income for the same amount of "time served" is certainly a 'B' scale that doesn't belong.
Ironically, some of the Captains that I fly with probably think that retirement is the least of my concerns as a "junior" FO. Little do they know, I'll be forced out before they will, and never have a chance to make Capt anywhere.
We all have a different story.
03-29-2015 | 06:22 AM
#87
Line Holder
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 704
Likes: 8
From: 757/767 Capt
Cactus Crew,
I'm assuming you were hired at a later age, maybe in your early 40's for you to say that you'll probably never make Capt. We're you prior Military and stayed in for 20? Prior mil pilots who elect to put in their 20 years on Active Duty really are in no position to complain if they won't make Captain before they retire. Not saying this applies to You, but the decision to stay in for a full 20 years has a large impact in regards to ones civilian career expectations.
I'm assuming you were hired at a later age, maybe in your early 40's for you to say that you'll probably never make Capt. We're you prior Military and stayed in for 20? Prior mil pilots who elect to put in their 20 years on Active Duty really are in no position to complain if they won't make Captain before they retire. Not saying this applies to You, but the decision to stay in for a full 20 years has a large impact in regards to ones civilian career expectations.
03-29-2015 | 08:08 AM
#88
Tri-tanic operator
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
From: Doggie
Cactus Crew,
I'm assuming you were hired at a later age, maybe in your early 40's for you to say that you'll probably never make Capt. We're you prior Military and stayed in for 20? Prior mil pilots who elect to put in their 20 years on Active Duty really are in no position to complain if they won't make Captain before they retire. Not saying this applies to You, but the decision to stay in for a full 20 years has a large impact in regards to ones civilian career expectations.
I'm assuming you were hired at a later age, maybe in your early 40's for you to say that you'll probably never make Capt. We're you prior Military and stayed in for 20? Prior mil pilots who elect to put in their 20 years on Active Duty really are in no position to complain if they won't make Captain before they retire. Not saying this applies to You, but the decision to stay in for a full 20 years has a large impact in regards to ones civilian career expectations.
*** was I thinking ?
03-29-2015 | 08:10 AM
#89
Banned
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 937
Likes: 0
From: On Food Stamps
Cactus Crew,
I'm assuming you were hired at a later age, maybe in your early 40's for you to say that you'll probably never make Capt. We're you prior Military and stayed in for 20? Prior mil pilots who elect to put in their 20 years on Active Duty really are in no position to complain if they won't make Captain before they retire. Not saying this applies to You, but the decision to stay in for a full 20 years has a large impact in regards to ones civilian career expectations.
I'm assuming you were hired at a later age, maybe in your early 40's for you to say that you'll probably never make Capt. We're you prior Military and stayed in for 20? Prior mil pilots who elect to put in their 20 years on Active Duty really are in no position to complain if they won't make Captain before they retire. Not saying this applies to You, but the decision to stay in for a full 20 years has a large impact in regards to ones civilian career expectations.
03-29-2015 | 09:01 AM
#90
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
From: 767 Seat 1A
Why? If someone chose to stay in the military for 20+ years, they made that decision voluntarily. If they did not realize that decision would impact their career progression after they retired from the military, they were dreaming. I got out at the 12 year mark. Should I be complaining because I got no retirement ID to shop on bases or get military discounts, or military retirement with it's pay and medical benefits? I gave up the military retirement, and am now a mid-seniority capt. at UPS - If I had stayed for 20 and earned military retirement, I'd be a junior capt. Someone just a couple of years behind me might not ever make capt., some simply because of timing which they had no control over, some because of prior decisions.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
