Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-08-2012, 01:41 PM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,722
Originally Posted by scambo1
You misunderstood what I said.
My metric is pilot rate ie: lets say $125/hr divided by the passengers (76)= x
747-400 is $380ish/hr divided by 400 passengers = y
I dont see a 60% disparity
My metric is pilot rate ie: lets say $125/hr divided by the passengers (76)= x
747-400 is $380ish/hr divided by 400 passengers = y
I dont see a 60% disparity
I'll do the math for you Scambo:
First, I'll solve for X, so that's $125/76= $1.644 per pax.
For Y we have, $380/400= $.95 per pax.
So from the above, X over Y, 1.644/.95= it's 1.73 times MORE EXPESIVE to fly them on the 76 seat RJ...or if you like it expressed the other way round, .95/1.644= 57.78% cheaper to fly them on the 747.
04-08-2012, 01:43 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by Timbo
Too bad we don't have some type of a big National Union with some stones and political clout, that would set a pay floor, or some type of system wide, minimum pay and benfit scale, that would prohibit the whipsawing we've been watching since the B scale came to ALPA, back in 1985...
Instead we had to wait for the FAA to set the floor for anyone flying passengers in a Part 121, scheduled Airline type operation, as having to hold an ATP.
What a concept.
Where was ALPA in demanding this, many years ago, when the first RJ's started showing up? But today, all they have to do is piggy back onto this new Reg. and say; "We fully support the new 1500hr. ATP rule, and to that end, since you are going to have to be hiring a more experienced, higher rated pilot, who has invested more time and money into his own training, we will now enact a "Minimum Pay Scale" for all ATP Pilots, starting with the 50 seat RJ's, and that minimum rate will be $100/hr. (or something greater) for first year Capts. and $67hr. for first year F/O's, and go up from there, for every year of greater experience these pilots will have to offer."
Where's all my ALPA PAC money going anyway??
Instead we had to wait for the FAA to set the floor for anyone flying passengers in a Part 121, scheduled Airline type operation, as having to hold an ATP.
What a concept.
Where was ALPA in demanding this, many years ago, when the first RJ's started showing up? But today, all they have to do is piggy back onto this new Reg. and say; "We fully support the new 1500hr. ATP rule, and to that end, since you are going to have to be hiring a more experienced, higher rated pilot, who has invested more time and money into his own training, we will now enact a "Minimum Pay Scale" for all ATP Pilots, starting with the 50 seat RJ's, and that minimum rate will be $100/hr. (or something greater) for first year Capts. and $67hr. for first year F/O's, and go up from there, for every year of greater experience these pilots will have to offer."
Where's all my ALPA PAC money going anyway??
04-08-2012, 01:49 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Originally Posted by Wasatch Phantom
Alfa,
You take other forum members to task for lack of research. Better look in the mirror buddy...
Here's the thing. I just spent maybe 10 minutes looking only at Captain pay for 76 seat jets. That's the CRJ-900 and E-190.
You claim that industry average 76 seat Captain pay is $64.60 per hour.
I want to see your "research".
I don't believe there are any CRJ-900 Captains with one or two years of longevity at any what I'll call "Respectable Regionals".
SkyWest: Year 2 (not likely): $66/hour Year 20: $112/hour
ASA: Year 2 (not likely): $65/hour Year 18: $107/hour
Jet Blue: Year 2 (not likely): $126/hour Year 12: $143/hour
Pinnacle/Mesaba: Year 2 (not likely): $67/hour Year 20: $106/hour
Mesa: Year 2 (not likely): $63/hour Year 20: $104/hour
Quick averages shows year two Captain pay at $77.40 and top scale at $114.40.
While you and I differ on the merits of the DALPA/DPA debate, I certainly hope that ALPA's "best and brightest" E&FA specialists are more accurate than your numbers or we are doomed.
You take other forum members to task for lack of research. Better look in the mirror buddy...
Here's the thing. I just spent maybe 10 minutes looking only at Captain pay for 76 seat jets. That's the CRJ-900 and E-190.
You claim that industry average 76 seat Captain pay is $64.60 per hour.
I want to see your "research".
I don't believe there are any CRJ-900 Captains with one or two years of longevity at any what I'll call "Respectable Regionals".
SkyWest: Year 2 (not likely): $66/hour Year 20: $112/hour
ASA: Year 2 (not likely): $65/hour Year 18: $107/hour
Jet Blue: Year 2 (not likely): $126/hour Year 12: $143/hour
Pinnacle/Mesaba: Year 2 (not likely): $67/hour Year 20: $106/hour
Mesa: Year 2 (not likely): $63/hour Year 20: $104/hour
Quick averages shows year two Captain pay at $77.40 and top scale at $114.40.
While you and I differ on the merits of the DALPA/DPA debate, I certainly hope that ALPA's "best and brightest" E&FA specialists are more accurate than your numbers or we are doomed.
Secondly, I did not make any mention of comparing seat counts, revenue available, or any of these other metrics because that is not the question that was asked. If you want to do that analysis then you are going to a whole other range of analysis and that is one that would take months.
As I said in my original post, it is impossible to even lay out simple facts without it devolving into some assumptions about what direction the pilot group should take. The facts are that without changes to our contract (concessions) the crew costs of operating a CRJ-900 at mainline are much higher than at DCI. Add in your idea of what pay/benefits increases are coming in this contract and the comparison just gets more difficult.
Now for additional head work, look at the an airline that is hiring 600-700 pilots per year. Pick a fleet size of CRJ-900's, your pick, and count up how many pilots are there assuming a crew complement of 4.5 crews per jet. Then figure out the career progression of a new hire as he has the choices of fleet and seat that exist at Delta today. What is the chance that a 12 year pilot would choose a CRJ Captain job over narrow body captain or even A-330/747/777/767-400 F/O? Now just start backing up that career path, not at our current airline, but at the airline that is cycling through 600-700 pilots per year. A pilot will be halfway up the seniority list at 10 years, assuming Delta doesn't grow.
The pilot group can decide which way they go, I make no assertion on what that direction should be. If you want to have a discussion based on facts then at least get the facts right. The first assertion was that we haven't done analysis, it was stated as fact. When the analysis is shown, then now we are even worse because the facts don't match your preconceived notions. Seriously, it's hard to please you guys.
04-08-2012, 02:08 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Originally Posted by SailorJerry
There's already precedence set for where pilots from DCI carriers go. This is outlined by the flow through agreements that were at one time in force between Delta and Mesaba and Compass. Mainline shouldn't tolerate seniority hopscotch by RJ folks. That being said they should all be offered a no displacement fence on their current equipment with bidding rights to our equipment.
04-08-2012, 02:11 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by Timbo
Too bad we don't have some type of a big National Union with some stones and political clout, that would set a pay floor, or some type of system wide, minimum pay and benefit scale, that would prohibit the whipsawing we've been watching since ALPA signed it's first B scale contract, back in 1985.
Instead we had to wait for the FAA to set the floor for anyone flying passengers in a Part 121, scheduled Airline type operation, as having to hold an ATP.
What a concept.
Where was ALPA in demanding this, many years ago, when the first RJ's started showing up? But today, all they have to do is piggy back onto this new Reg. and say; "We fully support the new 1500hr. ATP rule, and to that end, since you are going to have to be hiring a more experienced, higher rated pilot, who has invested more time and money into his own training, we will now enact a "Minimum Pay Scale" for all ATP Pilots, starting with the 50 seat RJ's, and that minimum rate will be $100/hr. (or something greater) for first year Capts. and $70/hr. for first year F/O's, and go up from there, for every year of greater experience these pilots will have to offer."
Where's all my ALPA PAC money going anyway??
Instead we had to wait for the FAA to set the floor for anyone flying passengers in a Part 121, scheduled Airline type operation, as having to hold an ATP.
What a concept.
Where was ALPA in demanding this, many years ago, when the first RJ's started showing up? But today, all they have to do is piggy back onto this new Reg. and say; "We fully support the new 1500hr. ATP rule, and to that end, since you are going to have to be hiring a more experienced, higher rated pilot, who has invested more time and money into his own training, we will now enact a "Minimum Pay Scale" for all ATP Pilots, starting with the 50 seat RJ's, and that minimum rate will be $100/hr. (or something greater) for first year Capts. and $70/hr. for first year F/O's, and go up from there, for every year of greater experience these pilots will have to offer."
Where's all my ALPA PAC money going anyway??
04-08-2012, 02:12 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
Seriously, it's hard to please you guys.
04-08-2012, 02:13 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by slowplay
Yeah, let's not let the real world ( I just showed a substantial percentage of DCI) get in the way of our wants and desires...
Pattern bargaining works. Both up AND down. I think all of us over the last decade have experienced that (C2K and BK).
Pattern bargaining works. Both up AND down. I think all of us over the last decade have experienced that (C2K and BK).
There has to be a better way.
04-08-2012, 02:14 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by sailingfun
Tim, You have been around for a long time. I am really surprised at your post. I know you understand the RLA. What you propose is specifically prohibited. You can't even have a national union. That is why ALPA is a association. DALPA is the union. When the RLA was conceived the idea of a national railroad union scared the living hell out of the railroads. They bought the politicians to make sure it never happened. The RLA is the result.
04-08-2012, 02:15 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
Originally Posted by sailingfun
Tim, You have been around for a long time. I am really surprised at your post. I know you understand the RLA. What you propose is specifically prohibited. You can't even have a national union. That is why ALPA is a association. DALPA is the union. When the RLA was conceived the idea of a national railroad union scared the living hell out of the railroads. They bought the politicians to make sure it never happened. The RLA is the result.
04-08-2012, 02:15 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Columbia
My financial planner told me something very similar about 10 years ago. I paid him a ton of money. I fired him the next day and hired a new planner. The new guy has performed much better, has been more trustworthy, and better represents my interests. His focus is on me. He returns calls in a timely manner versus in days or never with the previous guy as his client base is 1/4 the size.
just sayin.
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