Maybe so, but the 3 reps I talked to over this (and one of them said he knew of several more that felt the same way) all said no way. Still though, we have got to keep the pressure up by calling and writing them all, constantly, on this, and getting others who are like minded to speak up and do the same.

 

I've been saying this for a while now. The 1500 hour limit will actually help create a sustainable supply of pilots. Sucking up 300 hour wonders does nothing for the industry long term and actually canibalizes future supply. When all the retirements kick in it will likely lead to more hiring than the last big wave in the late 90's.

Even at that time, it was easy to fill classes even at dirtbag regionals with high time pilots. At the peak of the hiring boom "12 and 2" was very standard most of the time as a rock bottom minimum. The CFI machine has spooled down significantly over this last decade but it can and will be spooled up again. Making the 300 hour wonders stick around and get another 1200 hours of instructing and/or other jobs in the industry will be necessary to insure a constant supply and will only take an extra year or so. The ADHD MBA's of the world will just have to accept that they can't take every wet commercial pilot all at once just to staff for a short period of time.

The airlines need the 1500 hour rule more than we do.

 

Slow,

Using your above logic, AMR in BK, USAIR is paid less than us right now, UCAL pays less than us right now, we should be getting ready for a paycut in section 6.

How about we agree not to use bottom feeding contracts to try to justify/not justify what we strive for at Delta?

Does pattern bargaining only go down?

Scoop

 

I hope so. Let the ace dealers strike. I doubt they will though. And I'm sure any legacy can time any NMB release of a mega regional very nicely with massive CPA/RFP/ASA's that are always on a staggered basis and new "longecity reset" ponzi scheme airlines can be created out of thin air in an unlimited supply and still be very attractive for aspiring applicants because they go straight to the top of the list with a lightning quick upgrade.

This is a threat to legacies if they all close their eyes and sign super long term non staggered agreements. Other than that, they can start to break up the newly merged mega regionals any time they want to.

 

Yeah, let's not let the real world ( I just showed a substantial percentage of DCI) get in the way of our wants and desires...

Pattern bargaining works. Both up AND down. I think all of us over the last decade have experienced that (C2K and BK).

 

So what is the actual cost for full, uncompromising mainline parity at the DCI level?

Then back out all the redundancy and costs associated with a "portfolio" of DCI's. Then amortize all that over the CASM and you come up with numbers so insanely low that it illustrates how laughable it all is to outsource half your airline.

And like others have said, if it makes sense at the 76 and under seat level, it makes more sense at the 737, 757, 767, 787 level, right? Right?

If it really comes down to it, we can give them a break on some of the costing. Since it would create mainline jobs at an earlier entry point, we could have less than a 14% DC match. Oh wait, that's a B scale, right? Isn't that bad? Well its a heck of a lot less bad than outsourcing to the scum of the earth regionals like Hulas and JO and BB. Likewise, first year pay of 56 can be lowered for that seat only. Again, B scale? Get off the high horse because its far superior than off listing it.

And again, the total cost savings are miniscule as many have estimated using very conservative numbers like 100/hr premiums for it being at mainline and the "savings" is still very, very paultry.

 

What is interesting is that many of the regionals that make up the DCI portfolio have work rules that have come a long way since 2001, 401K match of 75% up to at least 8%, and trip rigs that pay them a lot more than what they fly. Their costs have gone up a lot over the lat 12 years. No doubt about that.

It will cost more on a pilot to pilot basis to fly the jets here. No doubt about it. We know that, and unless we want to fly their whole book, and have a separate one for this flying, we just need to understand and expect that. The difference is what seniority numbers will be flying A and B positions here versus there. Here it will be significantly more junior. That must be taken in to account.

Where we differ on labor costs the most are their mechanics, flight attendants, and dispatchers. Their mechanics have to work about a 70 hr week to clear 80K a year, their FA's top out at 27 an hr where ours are almost to 48 an hr, and their dispatchers are paid about 60% of what our get paid. The majority of the labor savings come from these.

The real savings comes in the form of removing debt off the balance sheet and having someone else commit to the aircraft lease/payment. DAL is still on the hook for the payment, but now though the form of an operational expense, and not debt service. This helps DAL lower the debt service on the debt it carriers as well and the debt that they would carry, which would result in higher rates/debt service for all of the debt. That savings far outweighs any pilot or labor savings. Find a way to allow or convince DAL to do this with in-sourcing labor, and reducing redundant management and support teams and you found a way for all parties to come out ahead.

The simple fact is the savings are too great for DAL to pass up and as a result they go for the savings and outsource the brand.

 

Do you somehow have to retire at 60 Jack? I think you have those same five years available to you too unless there is some sort of strange time warp that doesn't include you.

And no I have no kids in the business as if that matters anyway. I am the one that wants to put more money in YOUR pocket, not Carl.. you might want to do a little research buddy.. Carl thinks you need to wait until your seniority will allow you to hold the big iron.. I think it shouldn't make any difference... but rant on pal.

You don't get it.

 

So could the DALPA contract span to more than one company? The regional would get their pilots from Delta and pay in accordance with the Delta contract. All the pilots would be on a master list and could bid between companies as seniority allow. I know it may not be something you can institute now, but just an idea.

Or just negotiate in the your scope clause that any contracted flying must meet certain compensation requirements for pilots, thus driving up the cost of outsourcing.

 

What you state above is the sickness in our industry. What you and ALPA fail to see right under your nose is that ALPA is the cause of it and is making it all possible. By actively supporting outsourcing at mainline we are destroying the industry from the bottom up. ALPA leadership has bought into managements idea that you cannot afford to fly small jets at mainline rates and that by outsourcing more and larger jets to many cheaper carriers will allow price control which will allow more profits which will allow higher pay to mainline pilots.

The outsourcing portion has worked as advertised. By having multiple carriers Delta management has successfully moved flying from carrier to carrier as soon as one of these carriers cost have increased at all giving flying to not only non-ALPA carriers but also to groups that have been established to destroy ALPA carriers. The result is carriers with low longevity and established carriers in bankruptcy or large reductions. The companies that have gone bankrupt haven't gone bankrupt because they paid there pilots some outrageous dollar amount but because there longevity started to increase.

DALPA has not once publicly denounced the destroying of other ALPA jobs in favor of new startup or alter ego airlines because they believe that it is good for Delta pilots and that mainline pay rates can be increased because of the downward pressure on wages at DCI due to the whipsaw. The problem I see is that there no way to know if we are getting any of that money other that a little profit sharing but I also argue that we are creating a downward pressure on our own pay rates. When negotiations get down to pay rates any management team worth anything will have to point out the difference in pay between the 76 seat four year avg longevity pay rates and compare them to the smallest mainline equipment and say that it's just not reasonable to have a “significant” raise unless more outsourcing is allowed. This process then effects all other higher paying aircraft as well. I can guarantee that company negotiators and analyst are looking at the pilot cost of not just our peer airlines but also those airlines we are outsourcing to.

My believe is that ALPA's support for outsourcing to the lowest cost provider will continue to destroy the profession and place a downward press on mainline wages. DALPA has an opportunity now to stop or significantly reduce outsourcing and stop the downward pressure that the whipsawing and perpetual bankruptcy of regional carriers will continue to cause.