Alaska thread for Alaska pilots...
09-01-2015, 04:10 PM
#531
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 106
Originally Posted by 2loud
I know you guys are kidding but let's not divide and conquer from bottom up. That's the sort of stuff that got us to where we are today-senior guys throwing the junior folks under the bus.
As long as pilots are negotiating against the company, we will surely get our nuts handed to us AGAIN-never fails. A couple of weeks of negotiations training in Herndon just doesn't cut it. Sure, we have professional negotiators according to ALPO. Major league vs. little league or more like S.F. Giants vs. The Bad New Bears!
As long as pilots are negotiating against the company, we will surely get our nuts handed to us AGAIN-never fails. A couple of weeks of negotiations training in Herndon just doesn't cut it. Sure, we have professional negotiators according to ALPO. Major league vs. little league or more like S.F. Giants vs. The Bad New Bears!
09-01-2015, 04:48 PM
#532
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: 7th green
Posts: 4,378
Originally Posted by Chris Knight
So does ALPA just train negotiators and set them loose to fend on their own? I would think the other larger carriers and alpa national would take more direct involvement and maximize all leverage to raise the industry average.
That's why I just laugh whenever anyone says, "We need professional negotiators." That illustrates a basic misunderstanding of how the ALPA system works.
09-01-2015, 06:54 PM
#533
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 396
Originally Posted by Packrat
No they don't. They supply an ALPA professional to monitor and advise at all contract negotiations. You do, however, have to have members of the Negotiating Committee who are will to listen to and follow their advice.
That's why I just laugh whenever anyone says, "We need professional negotiators." That illustrates a basic misunderstanding of how the ALPA system works.
That's why I just laugh whenever anyone says, "We need professional negotiators." That illustrates a basic misunderstanding of how the ALPA system works.
Let's think about this, shall we? Alaskan is a tiny little legacy/major airline-I believe approximately 6 to 8% ASM. ALPO national does not, will not, does not wish to spend much of its assets and manpower ($$$ really) for such a small pilot group; it's not very cost effective. They'd rather focus on the bigger guys (DAL & UAL), again, for the mighty $. At the end of the day, sadly it's all about the $$$ in THEIR pockets. Sooner they can get the pilot group to settle, the sooner and more money ALPO gets. This "time value money" bs that they like to throw around.....it's really about them.
Our negotiating committee consists of your average line pilots who are voted in my the MEC. They may or may not have any union experience but that's of little importance. They receive a couple of weeks of training in Virginia. They are accompanied by so called ALPO "professionals" during negotiations. They thump their chest and start out strong. They send out surveys/polls that are fixed to a very weak and uneducated pilot group. Intentionally uneducated? Perhaps. They sit across from company negotiators who are accompanied by their professional negotiators & labor lawyers, who are highly paid "guns for hire". Let's think about this for a second. You take a highly motivated, highly intelligent, over achiever who attends a top tier law school (most likely an Ivy league) and finishes in the top 10%. This person WILL get recruited by multiple top law firms making huge coin. I highly doubt that this individual will settle to work for ALPO making 5 figures. Meet the company's hired guns. Can you say Ford & Harrison? Then, you have your mediocre ALPO "professional" and lawyers, who make fraction of what the company's hired guns make. Who do you think will prevail? Who has better motivation to win? Better yet, who's got the bigger gun? Yeah, money talks!
The company is smart and they have the assets to kick our a$$, anytime anywhere. The pilot group carries a .22 revolver and the company shows up with a 30mm gatling gun. Instead of doing what they are paid to do and spend our dues wisely, ALPO blows their "unaccounted" money on boos and fancy 5 star multi-course meals. Sound familiar? They are all talk, no substance-very much like our government and diluted corrupt corporations. Yeah, I'd say they have lost their way. ALPO national knows that they are beat so they offer up the pilot group as a living sacrifice and as always, give into the company. Tired and burned out from being outmatched and outwitted, the negotiating committee throws in the towel and do their darnest to sell the TA. When asked those tough questions at the road shows, they start foaming around the mouth and start turning blue in the face.
The last line of defense is the pilot group. Obviously, the "ALPA system" that you are referring to is not working. If ALPO can't get it together and shine when EVERYTHING was/is in our favor, how's it going to work when the real $hit hits the fan? Unless things change, history will certainly repeat itself.
09-02-2015, 11:50 AM
#534
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 466
Originally Posted by 2loud
I agree, ALPA does have the so called "professionals" who sit in during negotiations. Each one of these "professionals" specialize in an area(s) like retirement, pay, vacation, R&I and other sections of the contract. In many ways than one, the negotiating committee is just another ALPO National's puppet and definitely not up to par for the task.
Let's think about this, shall we? Alaskan is a tiny little legacy/major airline-I believe approximately 6 to 8% ASM. ALPO national does not, will not, does not wish to spend much of its assets and manpower ($$$ really) for such a small pilot group; it's not very cost effective. They'd rather focus on the bigger guys (DAL & UAL), again, for the mighty $. At the end of the day, sadly it's all about the $$$ in THEIR pockets. Sooner they can get the pilot group to settle, the sooner and more money ALPO gets. This "time value money" bs that they like to throw around.....it's really about them.
Our negotiating committee consists of your average line pilots who are voted in my the MEC. They may or may not have any union experience but that's of little importance. They receive a couple of weeks of training in Virginia. They are accompanied by so called ALPO "professionals" during negotiations. They thump their chest and start out strong. They send out surveys/polls that are fixed to a very weak and uneducated pilot group. Intentionally uneducated? Perhaps. They sit across from company negotiators who are accompanied by their professional negotiators & labor lawyers, who are highly paid "guns for hire". Let's think about this for a second. You take a highly motivated, highly intelligent, over achiever who attends a top tier law school (most likely an Ivy league) and finishes in the top 10%. This person WILL get recruited by multiple top law firms making huge coin. I highly doubt that this individual will settle to work for ALPO making 5 figures. Meet the company's hired guns. Can you say Ford & Harrison? Then, you have your mediocre ALPO "professional" and lawyers, who make fraction of what the company's hired guns make. Who do you think will prevail? Who has better motivation to win? Better yet, who's got the bigger gun? Yeah, money talks!
The company is smart and they have the assets to kick our a$$, anytime anywhere. The pilot group carries a .22 revolver and the company shows up with a 30mm gatling gun. Instead of doing what they are paid to do and spend our dues wisely, ALPO blows their "unaccounted" money on boos and fancy 5 star multi-course meals. Sound familiar? They are all talk, no substance-very much like our government and diluted corrupt corporations. Yeah, I'd say they have lost their way. ALPO national knows that they are beat so they offer up the pilot group as a living sacrifice and as always, give into the company. Tired and burned out from being outmatched and outwitted, the negotiating committee throws in the towel and do their darnest to sell the TA. When asked those tough questions at the road shows, they start foaming around the mouth and start turning blue in the face.
The last line of defense is the pilot group. Obviously, the "ALPA system" that you are referring to is not working. If ALPO can't get it together and shine when EVERYTHING was/is in our favor, how's it going to work when the real $hit hits the fan? Unless things change, history will certainly repeat itself.
Let's think about this, shall we? Alaskan is a tiny little legacy/major airline-I believe approximately 6 to 8% ASM. ALPO national does not, will not, does not wish to spend much of its assets and manpower ($$$ really) for such a small pilot group; it's not very cost effective. They'd rather focus on the bigger guys (DAL & UAL), again, for the mighty $. At the end of the day, sadly it's all about the $$$ in THEIR pockets. Sooner they can get the pilot group to settle, the sooner and more money ALPO gets. This "time value money" bs that they like to throw around.....it's really about them.
Our negotiating committee consists of your average line pilots who are voted in my the MEC. They may or may not have any union experience but that's of little importance. They receive a couple of weeks of training in Virginia. They are accompanied by so called ALPO "professionals" during negotiations. They thump their chest and start out strong. They send out surveys/polls that are fixed to a very weak and uneducated pilot group. Intentionally uneducated? Perhaps. They sit across from company negotiators who are accompanied by their professional negotiators & labor lawyers, who are highly paid "guns for hire". Let's think about this for a second. You take a highly motivated, highly intelligent, over achiever who attends a top tier law school (most likely an Ivy league) and finishes in the top 10%. This person WILL get recruited by multiple top law firms making huge coin. I highly doubt that this individual will settle to work for ALPO making 5 figures. Meet the company's hired guns. Can you say Ford & Harrison? Then, you have your mediocre ALPO "professional" and lawyers, who make fraction of what the company's hired guns make. Who do you think will prevail? Who has better motivation to win? Better yet, who's got the bigger gun? Yeah, money talks!
The company is smart and they have the assets to kick our a$$, anytime anywhere. The pilot group carries a .22 revolver and the company shows up with a 30mm gatling gun. Instead of doing what they are paid to do and spend our dues wisely, ALPO blows their "unaccounted" money on boos and fancy 5 star multi-course meals. Sound familiar? They are all talk, no substance-very much like our government and diluted corrupt corporations. Yeah, I'd say they have lost their way. ALPO national knows that they are beat so they offer up the pilot group as a living sacrifice and as always, give into the company. Tired and burned out from being outmatched and outwitted, the negotiating committee throws in the towel and do their darnest to sell the TA. When asked those tough questions at the road shows, they start foaming around the mouth and start turning blue in the face.
The last line of defense is the pilot group. Obviously, the "ALPA system" that you are referring to is not working. If ALPO can't get it together and shine when EVERYTHING was/is in our favor, how's it going to work when the real $hit hits the fan? Unless things change, history will certainly repeat itself.
09-02-2015, 12:01 PM
#535
New boss = Old boss
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Ca B737
Posts: 2,762
Originally Posted by Moose
Shack! Conflicts of interest and sub-par "professionals" get us whipped every time.
09-02-2015, 01:23 PM
#536
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 396
Originally Posted by mike734
Just what do you imagine above-par "professionals" could (would) do to get us a better contract? Perhaps they could bring lead pipes to the negotiation table. Maybe their superior command of the English language would somehow fool the company negotiators, then we could get a superior contract. Life is not an Aaron Sorkin movie.
You do have a point though regarding the "superior command of the English language". That, brains, power ($$$), desire, and testicles of iron is what we need. The wealthy with powerful lawyers/negotiators take advantage of it everyday. Unfortunately, ALPO only possess 1 of 5 of those traits/resources-money. You fight to win. Fight fire with fire, not gasoline.
09-02-2015, 02:51 PM
#538
New boss = Old boss
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Ca B737
Posts: 2,762
The first thing I would do if I was negotiating for our pilots is to NOT sign a non-disclosure agreement with respect to proprietary company information. I'm not interested on hearing the company's plans and why they can't afford blah blah blah. I'm only interested in the company's survival and maximizing our pay and benefits. I have not been in the room but I believe the Stockholm syndrome is a serious problem for our negotiators.
Negotiations will start soon enough. Let's hope Delta and SW have settled by then.
Negotiations will start soon enough. Let's hope Delta and SW have settled by then.
09-02-2015, 05:55 PM
#539
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: 7th green
Posts: 4,378
2loud,
Actually, I agree you make several valid points. Your points are well taken.
However, do you really believe the Alaska pilot group is willing to pony up the amount of money to compete with the dollars the Company is willing to spend to keep labor costs down?
Neither do I.
Actually, I agree you make several valid points. Your points are well taken.
However, do you really believe the Alaska pilot group is willing to pony up the amount of money to compete with the dollars the Company is willing to spend to keep labor costs down?
Neither do I.
09-02-2015, 06:08 PM
#540
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Position: Wicked Artsy, Moderately Fartsy
Posts: 194
Originally Posted by ExperimentalAB
It's really not too complicated. Simply make scope THE issue. AA drew their line in the sand, have the same gumption this next round.
You need to make the sick leave policy changes THE line in the sand. The reinvented sick leave golf ball that DALPA put in the garden hose for DL pilots to swallow better NEVER show in any future AS contract proposal.
Then you need to ensure another cost-neutral contract raise doesn't come at the hands of PBS calculating new pilot efficiencies...because that pill is a-coming.
The sad reality is AAG can afford to pay the 2017 rates for a long time without having to offer the pilot group anything but endless iterations of cost-neutral offers.
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