vilcas

There is a common thread in many of these runway excursions due to poor braking action, bad information from tower. When there is heavy snow you must assume that reports are not as reliable as when there is light snow. Literally the minute after they brushed and sanded the runway and came up with 555 the contaminant is starting to impact braking action. While I am not aware of the facts of this event I urge everyone to take tower reports with a grain of salt. They aren’t the ones flying the plane.

310skying

Do you know what an RCC is ? There is nothing bad about shooting an approach to mins and landing with an RCC of 555

labbats

Great in theory. But now imagine you’ve diverted and landed at another field... you get a call asking why you diverted when everything was legal and within limits.

I’d like to hear how that conversation goes for you.

Blaming pilots in this scenario seems like a bad idea. I’m much more inclined to blame whoever rated the runway conditions as 5/5/5.

The Ocho Libre

It never fails that any time an aircraft incident occurs, we hear negative commentary from a select few of the Monday morning QBs that tell us about their superior aviating skills and decision making while they have no facts to back up their commentary. Its a shame there isn't a psychology test to weed them out.

vilcas

RCC is only valid at the time it was done. In heavy snow conditions change rapidly. I have seen runways called bare and wet covered in snow.

BrewCity

Facts from the LiveATC archive sound clip -

Sioux Falls Tower told Allegiant 456 the wind was 130/16G21, RVR1800, Braking action had been reported good by a CRJ 20 minutes prior. After landing, tower tells the crew to allegiant to report exiting the runway, the crew responds, and then adds "braking action pretty much nil." Moments later, the Allegiant crew reported that they had gone straight off the departure end of the runway.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kf...2018-1630Z.mp3

Landing clearance / RVR report is around the 7:00 mark
After touchdown comments around the 9:00 mark

The Ocho Libre

So what we are to read from that comment is that despite planes landing ahead of you reporting good braking, and planes approaching to land behind you and not diverting, YOU would have the foresight to know that the runway conditions may have changed enough that you would divert to the alternate. Riiiiiggghhhht

vilcas

I can tell from this comment that you are new to the industry, welcome. This isn't about foresight, its about judgement. I was only pointing out that observations made during rapidly changing conditions should be taken with a grain of salt. What the aircraft behind you will do should not be part of your decision making process. Be safe and do the best to get as much information before making the decision. Things don't feel right don't do it. RCAM is not absolute. There are countless examples of reported conditions being different than encountered.

FreshWater

To what airline is the beneficiary of your greatness? And you’re not a condescending little internet prick, I don’t care what anybody says.

The Ocho Libre

Been in the industry plenty long. That comment alone proves my point about people like you. You think you know everything.

You seem to have some extra skill to avoid anything ever happening to you and thank you so much for sharing your incredible knowledge about changing runway conditions during snowfall. Clearly you are better than anyone else at aviating and we are lucky to have you out there and here on the forum, to keep us in check.

I just have to know what it is that should have made this crew feel that "things don't feel right" and divert? They have a legal RVR, runway 555, just like I'm sure they've seen where we fly at least dozens of times. Aircraft departing and arriving ALL day. What is this 6th sense you have that we can utilize to make sure this never happens again in the industry? Should we all divert if its 555 but snowing?

Every year a couple crews get bit by this at various airlines. I'm sure you can so please help out.