Are JR, Josh, Jay, etc trying to get outcast like Andrew and his peons??

Why the blatant gaslighting? Telling us all that the company has return to the table is obviously a blatant lie that we all know isn’t true. We all save the posts, emails, communications, etc from the NC. Just four months ago they told us they were at an impasse and that they would no longer negotiate. Then they asked to be released.

They are complete fools to put their names on Unterseher b.s. the union walked away from negotiations at the table to try and get a release. It obviously didn’t work. Don’t gaslight and say it was management who walked away from the table - they obviously didn’t.

I’m not stupid enough to believe that management isn’t being obtuse, difficult, union bashing, etc. but we all expect that. We all know the proffer was denied, don’t lie to us and pretend the last four months didn’t happen by telling us management walked away from negotiations.

if management were to walk away the NMB would release us. No management team walks away. They all show up, they just slow roll everything like at frontier. Frontier management is telling them they need a cost neutral contract - no raises in hourly rates. But they at least show up to negotiate.

im just in awe that Unterseher has brainwashed Josh, Jay and JR so religiously. These guys are no longer just Unterseher cheerleaders they’re true zealots. I overheard JR on the speaker phone talking about how he doesn’t consider himself a pilot but a unionist for working people everywhere. That’s a fine sentiment, but what they heck do I have in common with warehouse workers who get hired without a high school degree? I was utterly embarrassed and frightened to think this guy is the one who is negotiating multi billion dollar contract against the Ford Harrison machine of attorneys.

anyway, late night rant. But the NC is completely tone deaf and lost. Their messages are embarrassing, no one believes a word they say, stop gaslighting us - it just makes you all look like a religious zealot acting like a mascot for a junior college football team.

 

That's a distorted way to view the situation. The company repeatedly tells us they want to pay it but says your union is in the way. Most of us know this is what F&H instructs middle mngt to do. The union later says okay pay it, we aren't in the way. We all knew the company would mostly likely not want to but the ask was simply to show that this was an obvious attempt to create divide. But somehow you spin this as the union's fault, okay.

cptnate - No we were not denied proffer. You have to have a status meeting before proffer and the status meeting was not denied but is still being considered. The union also never stopped their intent to negotiating and has always been available but you know this already.

 

Why did GU wait until the ALPA drive gained steam to get serious about negotiating?🤔

 

This is so ignorant. You do know that the NMB has "considered" status conferences for years with pilot negotiations, right? The NMB in writing said that "this case remains in mediation." what does that mean to you? it is either in mediation or an impasse. if it is in mediation then by default it cannot be an impasse. we requested a proffer based on our belief we were at impasse and needed to be released. The NMB disagrees that we are at an impasse. That is the same as denying our proffer.

You can live in the clouds and drink the IBT kool aid all you want, but even members of the NC know that the proffer was denied which is why they are now shifting to comprehensive. NC was ****ed that we were giving a comprehensive because they've been saying for a year that we would not do a comprehensive until work rules were finished. What caused the change in strategy? The NMB disagrees that we are at impasse.

The union did stop negotiating when we requested to be released. they told us over and over again that they would not negotiate because we are at an impasse and there was nothing to talk about BECAUSE the NC would not talk money, retirement, benefits, etc until work rules were complete and work rules (unstacking) were at an impasse.

You can live in fantasy land all you want, but not even the NC agrees with you - hence why they are furious that we are giving in to management's game of doing comprehensives.

 

Who misinformed you that the union hasn't been serious about negotiations? Why do you think we have mostly only been negotiating on the few sparse scheduled mediation days over the last 2 years even though the union is available to negotiate every day outside of mediation? The trustee isn't controlling what the negotiators can TA, they don't even need approval from him. Most if not all are taking pay cuts, not running for any slate and can't wait to step down after the TA drops.

The NMB can deny the status meeting. What you're saying is not a mutually exclusive set of outcomes so your 'if this than that" conclusion is not correct. Like I said before, this is a very similar situation to WN in 2023 just 4 months before their TA. WN made a great decision by declaring the impasse even though they didn't get released and it seemed like a mistake at the time to some. We're most likely within 4-8 months from getting released but swap unions, dump your cash bank and you're looking at another 2-3 years easy. As far as the negotiation strategy I've already previously explained the cost analysis disadvantage you put yourself in and why the union just downgraded their strategy.

 

[QUOTE=Bitcoin;3928631]Who misinformed you that the union hasn't been serious about negotiations? Why do you think we have mostly only been negotiating on the few sparse scheduled mediation days over the last 2 years even though the union is available to negotiate every day outside of mediation? The trustee isn't controlling what the negotiators can TA, they don't even need approval from him. Most if not all are taking pay cuts, not running for any slate and can't wait to step down after the TA drops.

The emails in June 2024 from the current negotiating team stated that they were offended that the company had passed a compromise proposal and they in return didn’t pass anything back. So either they said what happened and you are misinformed or they were lying about what went down and you are privy to that information.

 

Now look, I understand the instinct to compare this to WN in 2023. But let us be honest with ourselves. Our situation is not the same. We declared impasse four months ago, and since then, we have essentially stopped negotiating. The problem is, five major sections were still open or had not even been passed across the table in mediated sessions. That is not a true impasse, and it sends the wrong message to both the NMB and the company.

Yes, the NMB can deny a status meeting or a release. That is always a possibility. But we cannot base our entire strategy on what might happen if we just wait long enough. Declaring impasse without exhausting the process weakens our position. We gave up forward movement in mediation, and now we are stuck defending a stall out, largely over PBS unstacking, an issue most of the pilot group has no appetite to delay a contract over.

Let us be real. The idea that we are four to eight months from release is not a plan. It is a hope. And if we are wrong, we are burning time, pilot patience, and credibility. You only get so many chances to keep the group unified and engaged. And right now, that is slipping.

Hope is not a strategy. Discipline is. Listening to the group matters. Timing matters. If we are serious about delivering, then we need to stop justifying inaction and start fixing the direction we are heading. Because the longer we wait on a strategy the group does not support, the harder it is going to be to bring everyone with us when it really counts.

 

From what you're saying it sounds like you think replying with a comprehensive proposal back then would have been a good idea? Is it safe to assume you think not putting yourself at a disadvantage early on by not responding to a below regional comp proposal you are somehow not taking negotiations seriously? AI can help inform you why comprehensive proposals are problematic in less than 2 mins. Do you realize there is a mediator guiding the sessions? The comp. p. back then was just a tactic to get you fired up and blame your union, which clearly worked on you but in reality the un-passed sections left won't be an issue. Even both sides will admit that scope, comp, retirement etc won't be an issue.

 

No, that’s not what I said, they said they didn’t offer anything in return (no passes of anything). Basically took their ball and went home. That’s great that everyone is in agreement that the non passes will not be an issue. Makes a guy wonder why we even have sessions.

 

Won’t be an issue at all as long as we agree to be bottom of the barrel in all of that!