Furlough Estimates
08-04-2020, 06:32 PM
#791
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 589
Originally Posted by MEFLIGHT
The most junior pilot may disagree with that, it's all perspective.
08-04-2020, 07:32 PM
#792
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2013
Posts: 806
The irony is....let's say you're in the bottom 100 and you do nothing, and they were planning on furloughing 1000, and 1100 bid for a Zero line but you didn't, guess what? Those bottom 100 won't get furloughed and will get to keep doing what they're doing. Without the company releasing furlough numbers (which I am sure they will) this is just a game of russian roulette.
08-04-2020, 08:42 PM
#793
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Posts: 579
Originally Posted by Da40Pilot
The irony is....let's say you're in the bottom 100 and you do nothing, and they were planning on furloughing 1000, and 1100 bid for a Zero line but you didn't, guess what? Those bottom 100 won't get furloughed and will get to keep doing what they're doing. Without the company releasing furlough numbers (which I am sure they will) this is just a game of russian roulette.
08-05-2020, 03:39 AM
#795
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,728
I'm gonna wait for the Q&A before getting spun up but yeah, the language about selecting a ZTL in leu of a furlough is concerning. Not sure why it couldn't just be written to release a furlough number, ZTLs are awarded, the furlough number is reduced by those taking a ZTL not inside the original furlough footprint, then furlough based on the new number (including anyone that was awarded a ZTL if they fall inside).
I don't speak legalese however, so I'll see what the union says.
I don't speak legalese however, so I'll see what the union says.
08-05-2020, 04:15 AM
#796
New Hire
Joined APC: Mar 2020
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by NotMrNiceGuy
10X? Wow. That sounds like a lot.
The only people that think that superficial view of Europe vs. the US are doing so through their convenient political lens. Look, I love Europe. Fantastic locations, history, and scenery. There may even be a case that QOL there if you make less than $45K/€/£. But above that threshold, it’s not even close.
Tech:
US - Google, Facebook, Twitter, Uber, Netflix, Amazon, Apple, etc.
Europe - Nokia?
Education:
US - 7 out of top 10 universities in the world. Other three in the UK.
Transportation:
I’m guessing you like the train system? It’s true, many major EURO cities have great subway systems and city infrastructure. But beyond that, the trains were unreliable and not punctual. Plan an extra 45 minutes for everything (German/Italy) experience.
Welfare/Social Programs:
This is where it’s political. If that’s what you like, then it’s probably some kind of Utopia to you. But in Germany, those folks pay between 7-8% of gross for that healthcare. The UK is no different. Denmark is off the charts. Not to mention employer contribution of the same percentage. That’s more than three times what comes out of my paycheck. And the actual care? My wife had a baby here and abroad. The level of care is not the same. She said she felt like she was at a five star resort having the baby here in the US. No sharing rooms with other patients. Own bathroom. Meals that consisted of more than just bread and cheese.
Europe is definitely first world and is really nice. But nowadays, Americans tend to forget why their ancestors came here. Until you actually experience it, I think that European mystique is more hype than substance. It’s just annoying to hear over and over how incredible Europe is by those that just repeat talking points and have never spent any meaningful time there.
The only people that think that superficial view of Europe vs. the US are doing so through their convenient political lens. Look, I love Europe. Fantastic locations, history, and scenery. There may even be a case that QOL there if you make less than $45K/€/£. But above that threshold, it’s not even close.
Tech:
US - Google, Facebook, Twitter, Uber, Netflix, Amazon, Apple, etc.
Europe - Nokia?
Education:
US - 7 out of top 10 universities in the world. Other three in the UK.
Transportation:
I’m guessing you like the train system? It’s true, many major EURO cities have great subway systems and city infrastructure. But beyond that, the trains were unreliable and not punctual. Plan an extra 45 minutes for everything (German/Italy) experience.
Welfare/Social Programs:
This is where it’s political. If that’s what you like, then it’s probably some kind of Utopia to you. But in Germany, those folks pay between 7-8% of gross for that healthcare. The UK is no different. Denmark is off the charts. Not to mention employer contribution of the same percentage. That’s more than three times what comes out of my paycheck. And the actual care? My wife had a baby here and abroad. The level of care is not the same. She said she felt like she was at a five star resort having the baby here in the US. No sharing rooms with other patients. Own bathroom. Meals that consisted of more than just bread and cheese.
Europe is definitely first world and is really nice. But nowadays, Americans tend to forget why their ancestors came here. Until you actually experience it, I think that European mystique is more hype than substance. It’s just annoying to hear over and over how incredible Europe is by those that just repeat talking points and have never spent any meaningful time there.
classic pilot, a genius on every topic.....
08-05-2020, 04:21 AM
#797
New Hire
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 7
The very junior individuals that bid ZTL’s can thank the senior guys that get furloughed since we’re now abrogating seniority. Thank them for paying their dues and getting hired at the company quicker. But oh well, “You’ll be senior someday”.
As long as we’re selectively using he seniority list, I’ll take a 777 CA spot..
The 900 or so that we’re on the bubble and now have to bid ZTL are probably justified going active shooter.
The BOD should have to stand in front of the 900, DALPA and UALPA and justify why they lowered the bar. Not sure if there was an attorney present when they negotiated this deal? I guess we can be happy that the BOD didn’t concede anything🤷🏼♂️ Lowering the ALV looks a lot better now. Could the APA be on the hook for any litigation out of this? Will any reps be voted out in the upcoming elections or does apathy and status quo prevail..
Furlough Mitigation could’ve been achieved by doing absolutely nothing if this was the alternative. The aPA gave the company a blank check to furlough 2500 regardless of voluntary or involuntary.
Haven't seen a deal this bad since the trail of tears. Maybe the APA will throw in some covid blankets for the furloughees and their families this winter🥴
As long as we’re selectively using he seniority list, I’ll take a 777 CA spot..
The 900 or so that we’re on the bubble and now have to bid ZTL are probably justified going active shooter.
The BOD should have to stand in front of the 900, DALPA and UALPA and justify why they lowered the bar. Not sure if there was an attorney present when they negotiated this deal? I guess we can be happy that the BOD didn’t concede anything🤷🏼♂️ Lowering the ALV looks a lot better now. Could the APA be on the hook for any litigation out of this? Will any reps be voted out in the upcoming elections or does apathy and status quo prevail..
Furlough Mitigation could’ve been achieved by doing absolutely nothing if this was the alternative. The aPA gave the company a blank check to furlough 2500 regardless of voluntary or involuntary.
Haven't seen a deal this bad since the trail of tears. Maybe the APA will throw in some covid blankets for the furloughees and their families this winter🥴
08-05-2020, 07:29 AM
#798
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 269
Originally Posted by m78fl370
This is going to lead to WAY more guys without pay this fall than would have been if the company just had to furlough the old fashioned way.
How so? A max of 2500 can be furloughed unless more warn letters are issued and the ZTL is supposed to reduce furloughs 1 for 1. Or are you seeing it another way?
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08-05-2020, 08:54 AM
#800
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 155
Originally Posted by airlinegypsy
How so? A max of 2500 can be furloughed unless more warn letters are issued and the ZTL is supposed to reduce furloughs 1 for 1. Or are you seeing it another way?
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
From what it looks like to me, for the bottom 1600, this deal could work out for them better than nothing. For the 900 in the bubble, this looks like a certain furlough, or ZTL, when there was a chance of hanging on before.
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