Originally Posted by JoeyPants

Here is a really good one if you'll allow for a white dude (and liberal) to discuss all of this nonsense. Sam Harris takes a pretty deep dive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmgxtcbc4iU&t=3254s

Originally Posted by WhistlePig

To be fair, Hyperbole, like riots, are the language of the unheard. I will admit that, Lies, Damn Lies, And Statistics go down a lot better with some smooth talking sugar: But the medicine is still bad. Statistics and The Data have been repeatedly presented, (quite well, but incorrectly), as conclusory where that can never be the case. First to equivocate or at least correlate good old fashioned murder with police murder, then, to justify increased black police encounters which in turn leads to more bad outcomes for black people which is explained by broken homes and falsely correlated supposed lack of values. Some argued that was as cultural failing. I agree there is a cultural failing; but it’s not the culture you are thinking of.

Now, I will not dispute that single parenting is tough and it is more prevalent in the black community particularly regarding males. And this representative single black parent must be frequently absent from supervisory duties while working often multiple jobs to ensure the basic needs of the child are covered. And this representative black child is growing up in a generational family home, which is good, but this home is not in a properly zoned residential area, the government prohibited that when it was built. So this home is in a neighborhood hemmed in by heavy polluting industry, and this home is surrounded by low-rent businesses such as liquor stores, pawn shops, payday lenders, dive clubs because the zoning allows it, unlike the protected suburbs. Suburbs that legally prohibited this representative family from ownership well into the 1970’s. After that the prohibitions were economic. The family home is in a bad neighborhood and not worth much, not enough to leverage a move to a safer suburb anyway. And why is the neighborhood bad? Because it was intentionally created that way by the government, and I use the term inclusively. A government that, regardless of Party, has always promoted white supremacy in some degree. That is the rotten culture that pervades America.

So what does that have to do with broken black families being more susceptible to bad outcomes? Simply this: Throughout our American History, black males have subjugated and separated, and worse. Ending the Institution of Slavery was great, but the incomplete follow though and the abrupt ending of Reconstruction following the unique election of Rutherford B. Hayes was disastrous. Facially discriminatory laws flourished as did open hostility and violence to the newly freed, but not yet equal citizens. The domestic terrorist organization, the KKK, was birthed and swelled, counting government officials including Supreme Court Justices, Senators (in our lifetime) and at least one President. Jim Crow and Segregation followed until the positive gains of the 1960’s.

Slavery intentionally broke apart families. That practice was continued with the Anti-Negro Statutes, then Jim Crow. For generations black families were destroyed by facially discriminatory laws that did not treat white males and white families the same way. This disparate treatment in our past continues to pay the devil’s dividend today as multi-generational black broken families struggle in government created ghettos while whites families were allowed to flee to protected suburbs. That was by design. One in Three black males will spend time in prison. The New Jim Crow and the school to prison pipeline, prison now being a profitable business venture, is the payoff for Centuries of institutional racism by the government.

The disparate treatment by American government of black people literally touches every facet of life. It affects their environment, their families, their health, their ability to hold and pass generational wealth, which in turn affects their educational and earning opportunities, and perpetuates and continues. I’m not saying it is impossible for a black person to excel and succeed in America, but generally, it is a lot harder

Whether you want to believe it or not, white supremacy is baked into the American Experience. It simply is. As individuals, most people are not racist, and I feel comfortable saying no one participating in this conversation likely is. As individuals we do not commit overt racists acts, make overt or covert comments. In fact we go out of our way to demonstrate equality. But individual acts are not enough. We must all recognize the systemic effects of the government that was holding a very large and racist thumb on the scale. The Institution itself is not equal. At least, not yet.

If you made it this far, you’re a glutton for punishment. Have a great day.

Originally Posted by Hedley

He was involved in a good debate about religion. He was arguing from the atheist position on the Notre Dame campus. You had a devout atheist debating devout Catholics and the argument remained civil. They had a huge difference in positions, but they calmly presented their positions and poked holes in the other side’s argument, it was never personal or insulting. It was a calm, intellectual, and civil exchange of different views. It would be nice if we could do that about race, instead of turning the discussion into a Jerry Springer episode.

Originally Posted by WhistlePig

To be fair, Hyperbole, like riots, are the language of the unheard. I will admit that, Lies, Damn Lies, And Statistics go down a lot better with some smooth talking sugar: But the medicine is still bad. Statistics and The Data have been repeatedly presented, (quite well, but incorrectly), as conclusory where that can never be the case. First to equivocate or at least correlate good old fashioned murder with police murder, then, to justify increased black police encounters which in turn leads to more bad outcomes for black people which is explained by broken homes and falsely correlated supposed lack of values. Some argued that was as cultural failing. I agree there is a cultural failing; but it’s not the culture you are thinking of.

Now, I will not dispute that single parenting is tough and it is more prevalent in the black community particularly regarding males. And this representative single black parent must be frequently absent from supervisory duties while working often multiple jobs to ensure the basic needs of the child are covered. And this representative black child is growing up in a generational family home, which is good, but this home is not in a properly zoned residential area, the government prohibited that when it was built. So this home is in a neighborhood hemmed in by heavy polluting industry, and this home is surrounded by low-rent businesses such as liquor stores, pawn shops, payday lenders, dive clubs because the zoning allows it, unlike the protected suburbs. Suburbs that legally prohibited this representative family from ownership well into the 1970’s. After that the prohibitions were economic. The family home is in a bad neighborhood and not worth much, not enough to leverage a move to a safer suburb anyway. And why is the neighborhood bad? Because it was intentionally created that way by the government, and I use the term inclusively. A government that, regardless of Party, has always promoted white supremacy in some degree. That is the rotten culture that pervades America.

So what does that have to do with broken black families being more susceptible to bad outcomes? Simply this: Throughout our American History, black males have subjugated and separated, and worse. Ending the Institution of Slavery was great, but the incomplete follow though and the abrupt ending of Reconstruction following the unique election of Rutherford B. Hayes was disastrous. Facially discriminatory laws flourished as did open hostility and violence to the newly freed, but not yet equal citizens. The domestic terrorist organization, the KKK, was birthed and swelled, counting government officials including Supreme Court Justices, Senators (in our lifetime) and at least one President. Jim Crow and Segregation followed until the positive gains of the 1960’s.

Slavery intentionally broke apart families. That practice was continued with the Anti-Negro Statutes, then Jim Crow. For generations black families were destroyed by facially discriminatory laws that did not treat white males and white families the same way. This disparate treatment in our past continues to pay the devil’s dividend today as multi-generational black broken families struggle in government created ghettos while whites families were allowed to flee to protected suburbs. That was by design. One in Three black males will spend time in prison. The New Jim Crow and the school to prison pipeline, prison now being a profitable business venture, is the payoff for Centuries of institutional racism by the government.

The disparate treatment by American government of black people literally touches every facet of life. It affects their environment, their families, their health, their ability to hold and pass generational wealth, which in turn affects their educational and earning opportunities, and perpetuates and continues. I’m not saying it is impossible for a black person to excel and succeed in America, but generally, it is a lot harder

Whether you want to believe it or not, white supremacy is baked into the American Experience. It simply is. As individuals, most people are not racist, and I feel comfortable saying no one participating in this conversation likely is. As individuals we do not commit overt racists acts, make overt or covert comments. In fact we go out of our way to demonstrate equality. But individual acts are not enough. We must all recognize the systemic effects of the government that was holding a very large and racist thumb on the scale. The Institution itself is not equal. At least, not yet.

If you made it this far, you’re a glutton for punishment. Have a great day.

Originally Posted by Hedley

A person would have to be high to think that black people were not severely discriminated against in our history. Having said that, I will disagree with your argument. It isn’t the system keeping black people down during and after slavery that has got us to where we are today. There was a time when we could make that argument, but that time has past. After the Civil War, blacks had to endure reconstruction, employment contract laws, Jim Crow, and segregation. If you listen to black historians and authors such as Shelby Steele, Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Jason Riley, etc..., they point out the flaw in the argument that blacks today are where there are today due to “systemic racism” or government oppression. It certainly had an influence, but it’s not the main source of today’s problems. They show using empirical evidence that the blacks and whites shared almost identical percentages of intact nuclear families, unemployment, people being business owners, etc. After the Civil War it quickly became apparent that the government was going to let the newly liberated black people sink or swim, they chose to swim. Despite all of the hurdles thrown in their path, they turned to within and built a strong culture that centered itself on faith, self reliance, and the importance of an intact household. That remained up until the 1960’s. Jason Riley talks about two disastrous events that changed the black culture and got us to where we are today. For the almost 100 years after slavery ended, blacks and whites shared the same rates of intact families, employment rates, etc. It was in the years following the 1960’s and the Great Society when things quickly went down hill. One event was the creation of the welfare state. Government officials actually checked up on women to make sure that a man wasn’t in the home and explained that a single mother would get a bigger check if the father wasn’t present. This is where the breakdown of the nuclear family in the black community took off. He also talks about the political shift. Up until this point, the black community had invested in human capital, the idea that the best way to rise above was to make yourself better. According to Riley, is the second event is when the black community changed their focus from human capital to political capital. The idea was to vote in more black politicians so that they could carve out a bigger piece of the pie. From this there was the perfect storm provided by the breakdown of the family and the crucial role that fathers play, and the shift from self reliance to seeking assistance from the government. It is from this that the current victim mentality came from and what has been called the soft bigotry of lower expectations. Today, young black kids are mocked in inner city schools for trying to succeed in school, they are accused of acting white. The same is true among adults in our society. Black intellectuals who don’t blindly recite the victim narrative, but instead focus on data, are shouted down as Uncle Toms, and much worse. Candace Owens has been called a “black white supremacist” and has been called a sellout to her race for speaking out, and also for looking past race and marrying a white man. There was a time when black people were held down by the system, but now we are in a time where people, all people, are held down by themselves.

Originally Posted by Hedley

A person would have to be high to think that black people were not severely discriminated against in our history. Having said that, I will disagree with your argument. It isn’t the system keeping black people down during and after slavery that has got us to where we are today. There was a time when we could make that argument, but that time has past. After the Civil War, blacks had to endure reconstruction, employment contract laws, Jim Crow, and segregation. If you listen to black historians and authors such as Shelby Steele, Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Jason Riley, etc..., they point out the flaw in the argument that blacks today are where there are today due to “systemic racism” or government oppression. It certainly had an influence, but it’s not the main source of today’s problems. They show using empirical evidence that the blacks and whites shared almost identical percentages of intact nuclear families, unemployment, people being business owners, etc. After the Civil War it quickly became apparent that the government was going to let the newly liberated black people sink or swim, they chose to swim. Despite all of the hurdles thrown in their path, they turned to within and built a strong culture that centered itself on faith, self reliance, and the importance of an intact household. That remained up until the 1960’s. Jason Riley talks about two disastrous events that changed the black culture and got us to where we are today. For the almost 100 years after slavery ended, blacks and whites shared the same rates of intact families, employment rates, etc. It was in the years following the 1960’s and the Great Society when things quickly went down hill. One event was the creation of the welfare state. Government officials actually checked up on women to make sure that a man wasn’t in the home and explained that a single mother would get a bigger check if the father wasn’t present. This is where the breakdown of the nuclear family in the black community took off. He also talks about the political shift. Up until this point, the black community had invested in human capital, the idea that the best way to rise above was to make yourself better. According to Riley, is the second event is when the black community changed their focus from human capital to political capital. The idea was to vote in more black politicians so that they could carve out a bigger piece of the pie. From this there was the perfect storm provided by the breakdown of the family and the crucial role that fathers play, and the shift from self reliance to seeking assistance from the government. It is from this that the current victim mentality came from and what has been called the soft bigotry of lower expectations. Today, young black kids are mocked in inner city schools for trying to succeed in school, they are accused of acting white. The same is true among adults in our society. Black intellectuals who don’t blindly recite the victim narrative, but instead focus on data, are shouted down as Uncle Toms, and much worse. Candace Owens has been called a “black white supremacist” and has been called a sellout to her race for speaking out, and also for looking past race and marrying a white man. There was a time when black people were held down by the system, but now we are in a time where people, all people, are held down by themselves.

Originally Posted by METO Guido

That 'sounds' good. It's just hard to accept that great society programs, affirmative action legislation and NAACP like revenue generators, by themselves, are root causes of ghetto culture's hold on urban America and why eliminating them might fix what's gone wrong. I lived in the 60's, became an adult in the 70's. It upsets me to go back and think about it. If you don't believe racist sentiment didn't exist or play a significant part restricting opportunities or erecting glass barriers, that's not accurate.

When we meet, of course I notice your race. Also going to notice what you choose to say and how that's expressed. Your non-verbal expressions and eye contact. What you wear, how young, how well you listen or take an interest in others. What needs to change is what we expect of diverse individuals BECAUSE of our race, and theirs. If, you are black, I will be looking for you to fall into certain stereotypical patterns of belief, opinion and behavior on that basis alone. The more often it fits, in my mind, the more divergent we become. I value your life. Who am I to hold you down? Can't better it much, if any, for you. Been a struggle just dealing with mine.

Originally Posted by Hedley

One of the quotes that stuck out from a speech was that the civil rights movement has become the civil rights business. The NAACP falls into this category today. They tried to ban charter schools because the teachers unions, who have a well funded lobby, were against them. There is a certain political party that claims to represent the interest of the black community that has done the same, and for the same reasons. The very organization that claims to be for the advancement of colored people wanted to deny school choice to their own people, because to allow it was just bad business.

Originally Posted by Lucifer

over 5,000 years of recorded history and you all still group each other by rich or poor, haves or have nots, white vs black. Each group fights against the other. Each group blames the other for their own situation. You've managed to segregate yourselves from one another to the extreme that civil wars are being discussed openly.
Congratulations