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02-21-2013, 01:37 PM
#111
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Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by R57 relay
But not before the SLI process is begun, AND if we were to reach an agreement on a new SL with the APA, then we will have it done prior to a JCBA. The requirement for a JCBA is only for arbitration. The period before the JCBA is when your legal CBA will be dealing with your seniority. Heck, after these letters maybe they will use the Nic.
02-21-2013, 02:41 PM
#112
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by cactiboss
And that is a clear dfr! We will all be on the same contract by the time arbitration starts, triggering ripeness
It's far better to not spend the money on a suit that you'll recover nothing from, even if you win. Shoot for a fast fair combining of operations and the pay increases that will follow.
Carl
02-21-2013, 02:56 PM
#113
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
And that's the leap you just can't make IMO. It will not be a judge that's finds a DFR claim, it will be a jury. You will not be able to prove to a majority of jurors (to a preponderance of the evidence) that you've been harmed by two separate lists brought to this arbitration. You will be forced to define "harm" as not getting to keep the windfall that never happened. That will make you appear that you are using a court to gain advantage...as opposed to achieving fairness. If I were your attorney, I would urge you to drop this. IMO, you can't win. And even if you did, USAPA would file bankruptcy and discharge any monetary judgment. I also don't believe your lawsuit will produce any injunction that slows down the SLI arbitration.
It's far better to not spend the money on a suit that you'll recover nothing from, even if you win. Shoot for a fast fair combining of operations and the pay increases that will follow.
Carl
It's far better to not spend the money on a suit that you'll recover nothing from, even if you win. Shoot for a fast fair combining of operations and the pay increases that will follow.
Carl
02-21-2013, 03:11 PM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,293
Originally Posted by cactiboss
You are right, why do you think we wrote the letters? We do t want the apa to make a seniority deal with usapa, we want this in front of arbitrators. Ideally usapa is gone before any sli process comences.
I see no way USAPA is gone before the SLI process begins. You do realize that it begins within 30 days of the effective date, right? The petition for single carrier status doesn't have to be made until 4 months from effective date. The APA might want to drag their feet on that after you sternly written letters.
02-21-2013, 03:12 PM
#115
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,293
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
And that's the leap you just can't make IMO. It will not be a judge that's finds a DFR claim, it will be a jury. You will not be able to prove to a majority of jurors (to a preponderance of the evidence) that you've been harmed by two separate lists brought to this arbitration. You will be forced to define "harm" as not getting to keep the windfall that never happened. That will make you appear that you are using a court to gain advantage...as opposed to achieving fairness. If I were your attorney, I would urge you to drop this. IMO, you can't win. And even if you did, USAPA would file bankruptcy and discharge any monetary judgment. I also don't believe your lawsuit will produce any injunction that slows down the SLI arbitration.
It's far better to not spend the money on a suit that you'll recover nothing from, even if you win. Shoot for a fast fair combining of operations and the pay increases that will follow.
Carl
It's far better to not spend the money on a suit that you'll recover nothing from, even if you win. Shoot for a fast fair combining of operations and the pay increases that will follow.
Carl
02-21-2013, 03:22 PM
#116
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by R57 relay
It's not up to "you". Even though I think most of us think it will end in arbitration, I don't know many that "want" that. Just the ones that have received a windfall from a previous one.
I see no way USAPA is gone before the SLI process begins. You do realize that it begins within 30 days of the effective date, right? The petition for single carrier status doesn't have to be made until 4 months from effective date. The APA might want to drag their feet on that after you sternly written letters.
02-21-2013, 06:23 PM
#119
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: A330 capt
Posts: 236
Been following this little saga for awhile, and have some very general impressions as an outsider. It seems the USAPA guys want to hide behind a mountain of red technical legalese tape...and the more obfuscation of the central issue with peripheral legal matters, the better. It doesn't take a Supreme Court rocket surgeon or a Chief Justice of brain science to imagine the issue of ripeness would be satisfied if USAPA came to the sli table with an east/west DOH list to present to the APA and/or arbitrators....presented as if the Nic never existed, as if the USAir east pilots had been allowed to be the sole and final arbiters of their own seniority in their merger with AWA! ie. Delusional...the mighty, sacrosanct "principle" of the DOH list...the highly advantageous list they've dreamed about through any and all contemplated mergers (4 in counting) with larger, more viable carriers...UAL twice, DAL once, and now AA. (Ok, maybe I'm being too harsh...the stories I've heard can't all be true...I'm sure there were many senior captains who weren't on the verge of ordering up their 747 or 777 manuals, and not all of the old USAir furloughees may have been unrealistic enough to contemplate being recalled into the left seat of a widebody as a result of a DOH merger with a larger carrier...lol)
You are practically guaranteed there will be no negotiated sli between USAPA and APA...it will go to arbitration. Thus you are practically guaranteed there will be a real JCBA done before the sli...There may be weeping and gnashing of teeth by USAPA and possibly elements from the fAWA guys in the west, but a JCBA will be done by APA with or without the input of USAir pilots...(but a JCBA to your distinct advantage, as it seems the APA will have parlayed a normally draconian bankruptcy contract through several convolutions into an "industry standard" contract at the end of the term...good on you guys!) Then the real fun begins, I would be surprised if APA would even negotiate sli without the Nic....and...I would imagine the arbitrators would look upon a non-Nic list presented by USAPA with somewhat of a...shall we say...jaundiced eye.
Another general point...the further an sli gets from maintaining status and category...ie "effective maintenance of premerger relative seniority, vis a vis equipment held"... The more of a mess an integration becomes. DOH is the classic demographic that pilots latch on to if it gives a distinct advantage for that group...it is to be expected and is human nature. But the principle of "first hired" becomes a much less "lofty" or "fair" principle when it just so happens to..."coincidently" result in a windfall. DOH, unlike the classic "get out of jail free" card, -is not an "instant widebody left seat" card under any scenario...even in the far-fetched scenario of an awarded DOH list, there would be long and sturdy career-duration fences keeping you from enjoying that anticipated windfall....best keep your expectations reasonable...expect to have roughly the same career path you would have without the merger...slanted in favor of maintaining current equities vice future (however mathematically certain..ie "retirements") equities.
And by way softening my apparent stance on the USAPA pilots...I'm sure the vast majority of you are good guys, with no expectations of windfalls...It may be that the merger with the much larger APA group will mitigate the anticipated effects of the Nic list, and cooler heads will prevail and you will go with it....I have only resorted to the previous extreme characterizations because I have heard them by way of "industry reputation"...however invalid or inaccurate they may be....much like the Delta pilots being known as "clones" or the Northwest guys being known as...I don't know..what was it...Sky Nazis?....no wait that might have been American....wait, what were the United guys? Good luck to you all.
You are practically guaranteed there will be no negotiated sli between USAPA and APA...it will go to arbitration. Thus you are practically guaranteed there will be a real JCBA done before the sli...There may be weeping and gnashing of teeth by USAPA and possibly elements from the fAWA guys in the west, but a JCBA will be done by APA with or without the input of USAir pilots...(but a JCBA to your distinct advantage, as it seems the APA will have parlayed a normally draconian bankruptcy contract through several convolutions into an "industry standard" contract at the end of the term...good on you guys!) Then the real fun begins, I would be surprised if APA would even negotiate sli without the Nic....and...I would imagine the arbitrators would look upon a non-Nic list presented by USAPA with somewhat of a...shall we say...jaundiced eye.
Another general point...the further an sli gets from maintaining status and category...ie "effective maintenance of premerger relative seniority, vis a vis equipment held"... The more of a mess an integration becomes. DOH is the classic demographic that pilots latch on to if it gives a distinct advantage for that group...it is to be expected and is human nature. But the principle of "first hired" becomes a much less "lofty" or "fair" principle when it just so happens to..."coincidently" result in a windfall. DOH, unlike the classic "get out of jail free" card, -is not an "instant widebody left seat" card under any scenario...even in the far-fetched scenario of an awarded DOH list, there would be long and sturdy career-duration fences keeping you from enjoying that anticipated windfall....best keep your expectations reasonable...expect to have roughly the same career path you would have without the merger...slanted in favor of maintaining current equities vice future (however mathematically certain..ie "retirements") equities.
And by way softening my apparent stance on the USAPA pilots...I'm sure the vast majority of you are good guys, with no expectations of windfalls...It may be that the merger with the much larger APA group will mitigate the anticipated effects of the Nic list, and cooler heads will prevail and you will go with it....I have only resorted to the previous extreme characterizations because I have heard them by way of "industry reputation"...however invalid or inaccurate they may be....much like the Delta pilots being known as "clones" or the Northwest guys being known as...I don't know..what was it...Sky Nazis?....no wait that might have been American....wait, what were the United guys? Good luck to you all.
02-21-2013, 06:35 PM
#120
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by wiggy
Been following this little saga for awhile, and have some very general impressions as an outsider. It seems the USAPA guys want to hide behind a mountain of red technical legalese tape...and the more obfuscation of the central issue with peripheral legal matters, the better. It doesn't take a Supreme Court rocket surgeon or a Chief Justice of brain science to imagine the issue of ripeness would be satisfied if USAPA came to the sli table with an east/west DOH list to present to the APA and/or arbitrators....presented as if the Nic never existed, as if the USAir east pilots had been allowed to be the sole and final arbiters of their own seniority in their merger with AWA! ie. Delusional...the mighty, sacrosanct "principle" of the DOH list...the highly advantageous list they've dreamed about through any and all contemplated mergers (4 in counting) with larger, more viable carriers...UAL twice, DAL once, and now AA. (Ok, maybe I'm being too harsh...the stories I've heard can't all be true...I'm sure there were many senior captains who weren't on the verge of ordering up their 747 or 777 manuals, and not all of the old USAir furloughees may have been unrealistic enough to contemplate being recalled into the left seat of a widebody as a result of a DOH merger with a larger carrier...lol)
You are practically guaranteed there will be no negotiated sli between USAPA and APA...it will go to arbitration. Thus you are practically guaranteed there will be a real JCBA done before the sli...There may be weeping and gnashing of teeth by USAPA and possibly elements from the fAWA guys in the west, but a JCBA will be done by APA with or without the input of USAir pilots...(but a JCBA to your distinct advantage, as it seems the APA will have parlayed a normally draconian bankruptcy contract through several convolutions into an "industry standard" contract at the end of the term...good on you guys!) Then the real fun begins, I would be surprised if APA would even negotiate sli without the Nic....and...I would imagine the arbitrators would look upon a non-Nic list presented by USAPA with somewhat of a...shall we say...jaundiced eye.
Another general point...the further an sli gets from maintaining status and category...ie "effective maintenance of premerger relative seniority, vis a vis equipment held"... The more of a mess an integration becomes. DOH is the classic demographic that pilots latch on to if it gives a distinct advantage for that group...it is to be expected and is human nature. But the principle of "first hired" becomes a much less "lofty" or "fair" principle when it just so happens to..."coincidently" result in a windfall. DOH, unlike the classic "get out of jail free" card, -is not an "instant widebody left seat" card under any scenario...even in the far-fetched scenario of an awarded DOH list, there would be long and sturdy career-duration fences keeping you from enjoying that anticipated windfall....best keep your expectations reasonable...expect to have roughly the same career path you would have without the merger...slanted in favor of maintaining current equities vice future (however mathematically certain..ie "retirements") equities.
And by way softening my apparent stance on the USAPA pilots...I'm sure the vast majority of you are good guys, with no expectations of windfalls...It may be that the merger with the much larger APA group will mitigate the anticipated effects of the Nic list, and cooler heads will prevail and you will go with it....I have only resorted to the previous extreme characterizations because I have heard them by way of "industry reputation"...however invalid or inaccurate they may be....much like the Delta pilots being known as "clones" or the Northwest guys being known as...I don't know..what was it...Sky Nazis?....no wait that might have been American....wait, what were the United guys? Good luck to you all.
You are practically guaranteed there will be no negotiated sli between USAPA and APA...it will go to arbitration. Thus you are practically guaranteed there will be a real JCBA done before the sli...There may be weeping and gnashing of teeth by USAPA and possibly elements from the fAWA guys in the west, but a JCBA will be done by APA with or without the input of USAir pilots...(but a JCBA to your distinct advantage, as it seems the APA will have parlayed a normally draconian bankruptcy contract through several convolutions into an "industry standard" contract at the end of the term...good on you guys!) Then the real fun begins, I would be surprised if APA would even negotiate sli without the Nic....and...I would imagine the arbitrators would look upon a non-Nic list presented by USAPA with somewhat of a...shall we say...jaundiced eye.
Another general point...the further an sli gets from maintaining status and category...ie "effective maintenance of premerger relative seniority, vis a vis equipment held"... The more of a mess an integration becomes. DOH is the classic demographic that pilots latch on to if it gives a distinct advantage for that group...it is to be expected and is human nature. But the principle of "first hired" becomes a much less "lofty" or "fair" principle when it just so happens to..."coincidently" result in a windfall. DOH, unlike the classic "get out of jail free" card, -is not an "instant widebody left seat" card under any scenario...even in the far-fetched scenario of an awarded DOH list, there would be long and sturdy career-duration fences keeping you from enjoying that anticipated windfall....best keep your expectations reasonable...expect to have roughly the same career path you would have without the merger...slanted in favor of maintaining current equities vice future (however mathematically certain..ie "retirements") equities.
And by way softening my apparent stance on the USAPA pilots...I'm sure the vast majority of you are good guys, with no expectations of windfalls...It may be that the merger with the much larger APA group will mitigate the anticipated effects of the Nic list, and cooler heads will prevail and you will go with it....I have only resorted to the previous extreme characterizations because I have heard them by way of "industry reputation"...however invalid or inaccurate they may be....much like the Delta pilots being known as "clones" or the Northwest guys being known as...I don't know..what was it...Sky Nazis?....no wait that might have been American....wait, what were the United guys? Good luck to you all.
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