AOL update
02-22-2013, 11:35 AM
#151
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Bigg Bird!!
Posts: 599
Originally Posted by cactiboss
And usapa has taken advantage of the loophole to prevent the implementation of the Nic. and harm the west. The Nic. is not unachievable, it needs a single contract according to the 9th.
When the Nicolau award came out I was a 757 captain, we had no furloughs or downgrades. The fact the cleaned up list puts me back on a 757 captain that I lost is proof of your robbery. Today we have almost 200 downgrades over 100 furloughs and lost 26 airplanes. So now you want to compare what happen post Nicolau and have the west walk into sli at a disadvantage, a disadvantage that you caused by exploiting a loophole and providing the company much cheaper labor. All the reductions out west happened 3 years after we merged and two years after a single certificate and with you owing us 3 757 and 1/3 of the 190 seats.
When the Nicolau award came out I was a 757 captain, we had no furloughs or downgrades. The fact the cleaned up list puts me back on a 757 captain that I lost is proof of your robbery. Today we have almost 200 downgrades over 100 furloughs and lost 26 airplanes. So now you want to compare what happen post Nicolau and have the west walk into sli at a disadvantage, a disadvantage that you caused by exploiting a loophole and providing the company much cheaper labor. All the reductions out west happened 3 years after we merged and two years after a single certificate and with you owing us 3 757 and 1/3 of the 190 seats.
By the way, OUR current MOU dropped the min block hr./min. fleet # prots. What do you think is coming down the pipe for the west?? Your latest scheme is nothing more than a desperate attempt at securing a "first class" seat on the SS AA/USA merger. Your ship is sinking fast, and this latest "All In" by the west might just accelerate your travels to the bottom!!
By the way, if you want the 190 seats, get ready cause there coming to you in mass!!
02-22-2013, 11:43 AM
#152
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Posts: 110
Originally Posted by cactiboss
A pilot that doesn't bring a job should go to the bottom, but what about guys that have bypassed and allowed junior guys to return?
02-22-2013, 11:47 AM
#153
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew
Ok Victim, let me get this straight. In 2008 oil hit a record high of $145/brl. Your precious LAS base, along with other PHX routes, became instant money losers. Along with the retirement of the 737 and resulting Airbus consolidation= a surplus of west pilots. If not for the Min. block hr/min. fleet provisions of OUR TA, your pilot group would have been decimated!! This is why the west operates 25% of east flights. To keep you guys above the minimums. So please tells us why the east should subsidize the downturn and subsequent downsizing of the west operation???
By the way, OUR current MOU dropped the min block hr./min. fleet # prots. What do you think is coming down the pipe for the west?? Your latest scheme is nothing more than a desperate attempt at securing a "first class" seat on the SS AA/USA merger. Your ship is sinking fast, and this latest "All In" by the west might just accelerate your travels to the bottom!!
By the way, if you want the 190 seats, get ready cause there coming to you in mass!!
By the way, OUR current MOU dropped the min block hr./min. fleet # prots. What do you think is coming down the pipe for the west?? Your latest scheme is nothing more than a desperate attempt at securing a "first class" seat on the SS AA/USA merger. Your ship is sinking fast, and this latest "All In" by the west might just accelerate your travels to the bottom!!
By the way, if you want the 190 seats, get ready cause there coming to you in mass!!
02-22-2013, 11:48 AM
#154
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by pullforexit
While noble, recall rights should not be used a political weapon. If you bypass recall, you are bypassing your own seniority rights as well.
Last edited by cactiboss; 02-22-2013 at 12:15 PM.
02-22-2013, 12:24 PM
#155
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Posts: 110
Originally Posted by cactiboss
Got it, says everything I need to know about you.
Talk this out with me. We ended up with two operations because the east and west couldn't come together on a seniority list. The company took advantage of the financial situation and put all growth on the east side. West pilots bypassed recall because they didn't want to work with the east and wanted to poke the company in the eye. The company then hired 3rd list pilots to fill jobs that West pilots refused to take.
You asked if I should ever be placed ahead of furloughed west pilots on a seniority list. Obviously in a perfect world this shouldn't even be a question. The furloughs would all be back before any new hires came about. So no I don't think I should ever (nor do I think I ever will) be placed in a higher seniority position than a pilot who was hired before me.
But if you voluntarily bypass recall the company has to hire a pilot to fill the position you refuse to take. Should the furloughee then get their seniority back after they decide their personal sit out is over?
I completely understand bypassing recall if you have a better gig going, don't want to commute, married a hot millionaire wife, or whatever else. But if you're just trying to prove a point and then get upset about you seniority when you come back, I have less sympathy.
02-22-2013, 12:56 PM
#156
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2012
Posts: 370
Originally Posted by R57 relay
To accept that the T/A between US and AW left a loophole that makes the Nic unachievable for years and years? That is a point they rarely talk about or one that most other pilots even know about. To move on? To not threaten the merger?
Last year a west pilot cleaned up the Nicolau award to see what it would look like today. The founder of AOL would jump from around 88% on the AWA standalone list to 76% on the Nicolau award. A position that would give him much greater opportunities than he has now. One of the most junior west captain would only go from 49% west to 45% on the Nic. Senior captains would lose relative position and have PHX left wide open to more senior captains from the east.
Every single pilot on the west seniority list could be an E190 captain under the Nic. The top 85% or so could be a 737 or greater captain, A330 for 76I F/O.
Those are the reasons they hold on so tight.
I get it. I understand they did nothing wrong and just want what the process gave them. But the process has proven to be flawed and we have to deal with that. I wonder what we could have achieved if we had just done what the 9th circuit of appeals told us to do years ago. NEGOTIATE.
Meanwhile, I've not heard a peep about the really big SLI.
Last year a west pilot cleaned up the Nicolau award to see what it would look like today. The founder of AOL would jump from around 88% on the AWA standalone list to 76% on the Nicolau award. A position that would give him much greater opportunities than he has now. One of the most junior west captain would only go from 49% west to 45% on the Nic. Senior captains would lose relative position and have PHX left wide open to more senior captains from the east.
Every single pilot on the west seniority list could be an E190 captain under the Nic. The top 85% or so could be a 737 or greater captain, A330 for 76I F/O.
Those are the reasons they hold on so tight.
I get it. I understand they did nothing wrong and just want what the process gave them. But the process has proven to be flawed and we have to deal with that. I wonder what we could have achieved if we had just done what the 9th circuit of appeals told us to do years ago. NEGOTIATE.
Meanwhile, I've not heard a peep about the really big SLI.
Bean
02-22-2013, 03:55 PM
#157
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by cactiboss
I wonder what the 3 arbitrators in the us/aa arbitration will think of what the east had done? Of hummels recent letter? Of the fact usapa's merger committee can only negotiate for DOH?
Carl
02-22-2013, 04:30 PM
#158
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
None of that sort of nonsense will ever get to the eyes of the arbitrators. And even if someone, somehow slipped it in to them, they'd toss it as nothing more than " he said, she said" in a divorce proceeding. None of that stuff matters. The arbitration panel will only care about the lists that are current, the two sides' proposed new list, past precedent, and their own judgment. Everything else is just a side show that bores the hell out of the arbitrators.
Carl
Carl
02-22-2013, 04:34 PM
#159
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by pullforexit
Oh come on Cacti, we're trying to have a conversation here. Your statement above doesn't really garner a good discussion.
Talk this out with me. We ended up with two operations because the east and west couldn't come together on a seniority list. The company took advantage of the financial situation and put all growth on the east side. West pilots bypassed recall because they didn't want to work with the east and wanted to poke the company in the eye. The company then hired 3rd list pilots to fill jobs that West pilots refused to take.
You asked if I should ever be placed ahead of furloughed west pilots on a seniority list. Obviously in a perfect world this shouldn't even be a question. The furloughs would all be back before any new hires came about. So no I don't think I should ever (nor do I think I ever will) be placed in a higher seniority position than a pilot who was hired before me.
But if you voluntarily bypass recall the company has to hire a pilot to fill the position you refuse to take. Should the furloughee then get their seniority back after they decide their personal sit out is over?
I completely understand bypassing recall if you have a better gig going, don't want to commute, married a hot millionaire wife, or whatever else. But if you're just trying to prove a point and then get upset about you seniority when you come back, I have less sympathy.
Talk this out with me. We ended up with two operations because the east and west couldn't come together on a seniority list. The company took advantage of the financial situation and put all growth on the east side. West pilots bypassed recall because they didn't want to work with the east and wanted to poke the company in the eye. The company then hired 3rd list pilots to fill jobs that West pilots refused to take.
You asked if I should ever be placed ahead of furloughed west pilots on a seniority list. Obviously in a perfect world this shouldn't even be a question. The furloughs would all be back before any new hires came about. So no I don't think I should ever (nor do I think I ever will) be placed in a higher seniority position than a pilot who was hired before me.
But if you voluntarily bypass recall the company has to hire a pilot to fill the position you refuse to take. Should the furloughee then get their seniority back after they decide their personal sit out is over?
I completely understand bypassing recall if you have a better gig going, don't want to commute, married a hot millionaire wife, or whatever else. But if you're just trying to prove a point and then get upset about you seniority when you come back, I have less sympathy.
From judge Silver:
The primary focus of the parties’ summary judgment filings is whether the Transition
5 Agreement is “binding” on USAPA. According to USAPA, it is “not ‘contractually’ bound
6 by any of ALPA’s agreements,” including the Transition Agreement. (Doc. 160 at 10). But
7 the West Pilots, as well as US Airways, cite a variety of authority supporting the position that
8 the “decertification of ALPA and the certification of USAPA did not change the binding
9 nature of the Transition Agreement.” (Doc. 164 at 7). The West Pilots and US Airways are
10 correct.
5 Agreement is “binding” on USAPA. According to USAPA, it is “not ‘contractually’ bound
6 by any of ALPA’s agreements,” including the Transition Agreement. (Doc. 160 at 10). But
7 the West Pilots, as well as US Airways, cite a variety of authority supporting the position that
8 the “decertification of ALPA and the certification of USAPA did not change the binding
9 nature of the Transition Agreement.” (Doc. 164 at 7). The West Pilots and US Airways are
10 correct.
Last edited by cactiboss; 02-22-2013 at 05:05 PM.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
