Wow. Really?

Two things come to mind...

#1 - The only thing new in the world is the history you don't know.

#2 - Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

And if you honestly think that with an amendable date of 12/31/2019 that you will have anything whatsoever to vote "F-No" on before 2024 at the
earliest, then you really need to look at #1 and #2 again.

Let me point something out to you about the future though, which doesn't require historical knowledge: there is no pay raise provided for in the Company proposal for the status-quo period post amendable date. So for however many years it takes you to get that "F-NO" vote in, you will be stuck exactly where you are at. Good luck with that.

 

Exhibit #1 for why this should never have gotten past the BOD.

Democracy assumes educated and objective voters. You are neither, Texass.

 

 

His regional history is similar, but Karma will end up being a ***** in 2020 when the AA pilot Super Bowl premiers with the Geezers against the Young Turks (the geezers being the majority). Of course, both teams will lose and the team owners will win (anyone ever see the movie Rollerball (1975) ?), the only question is the degree of loss for each of the teams. The game will be played for the financial benefit (and even enjoyment) of the owners while the players destroy themselves and remain slaves to the team owners.

I predict the Young Turks will be the ones who lose the most and it will be traced back to January 2015 when many of the Turks blew off training (this vote) or were sold out by the Geezers of that day. The Geezers will sell out the Turks yet again at the first opportunity after the refs blow the whistle on the can-kicking delay by the owners.

Fun times ahead my fellow players.

 

I get what you're saying that PK won't deal with us in 2019/2020. And I understand that perfectly fine. But many no voters are saying that very thing yet also saying that PK will make a deal with them in 2015 with the "threat" of arbitration looming over their heads. It doesn't make sense.

Speaking about history, look at PK's history. They don't cave in to labor. I don't know why people think they're going to this time, but then they'll go back to not caving in by 2020.

My "F-NO" vote only pertains to the scenario of PK offering an offer that does not add QOL items in 2020. They may not offer anything. They may stonewall us. But if they don't and come to the table with another repeat of 2014, I'm willing to vote no at that point. Pay should not be an issue then.

The fact is you and I disagree on how best to tackle the future. That's fine, and I'll repeat what you said to me if the "no's" get what they want this time...good luck. We'll all need it one way or the other.

 

P/K won't deal with us in 2019/2020, but they will now? What is the trigger that forces them to deal with us today that isn't there in 2019/2020?

 

I think what drives PK to deal with us down the road is very dependent on the situation at that time. If it's status quo, I don't see them dealing with us. If the economy crumps, they'll want to deal but not to our favor. If pilots start to dry up and HR has a hard time filling training classes, they'll want to deal to make the contract better and attract pilots. Unless you've got a real crystal ball, it's tough to say what they will or will not do.

Regardless, PK has a long history of not giving in to labor groups. I think when the BOD started to regress and lobbed the dream list into Kirby's lap, they went into control mode. Now it's not about what makes sense, but telling APA to go pound sand. They will remain in that mode throughout arbitration.

 

your health insurance. Your spouse's health insurance. And your child's health insurance

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i've read this over and over and I have no idea what it means. The reason I have no idea what it means, is AAL doesn't want me to know what it means. Everyone opposed is focusing on HBT, promptly, or the integration of int'l/Dom. I view the medical excise tax as the big issue.

It's my view THIS is what AAL really wants. They see THIS change as a means to eventually get out of providing medical benefits to pilots. This is a long term plan to ELIMINATE pilot ,erican plans. They've successfully eliminated retiree medical, now employee medical is next.
It's so important they're willing to throw a lot of cash on the street in the hope we won't notice our wallets are being lifted.

Like the "bird droppings" robbery technique in South America...which I admit I fell for once...HBT, and the other issues are the bird droppings. While Kirby and Parker are wiping the "bird droppings" from our shirts, Jerry Glass will be picking our medical plan out of our pocket. Of course we won't notice the pan is gone until we gat back to the hotel.

In the event the Company determines the Standard or Core design options provided for in this Agreement(each and "Option") would be or become subject to an excise tax or other penalty included in The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) or any excise tax or penalty which may replace the PPACA, under applicable law, (and thus become an "Affected Option"), the Company will meet and confer in good faith in order to reach an agreement with the Union concerning the minimum modification or modifications to the Affected Option necessary to avoid application of the excise tax or other penalty. The Company shall provide to the Union information the Union reasonably requests, including actuarial reports, necessary for the Union's design and consideration of such modifications. Unless otherwise agreed, an agreed modification shall become effective at the time the excise tax or penalty would become applicable in respect of the Affected Option (the "Affected Option Date").

If the Company and the Union are unable to agree on modifications necessary to avoid the application of the excise tax or other penalty on the Affected Option within ninety (90) days after the initial meeting, the parties will select Arbitrator Bloch who will determine the modifications to the design of the Affected Option that will become applicable. The authority of Arbitrator Bloch is expressly limited to establishing those modifications to the design of the Affected Option that will ensure no excise tax or other penalty will apply. If Arbitrator Bloch determines no reasonably practical modification to the Affected Option can guarantee no excise tax or other penalty will apply, the Company shall have the right to terminate the availability of the Affected Option to the Pilots. If, under the preceding sentence, the Company has terminated or would have the right to terminate the availability to the Pilots of the Standard and/or Core Option, the arbitrator will be empowered to designate an alternative Option design (a "New Option") that is available from the Company provider and that replicates the provisions of the Core Option to the greatest possible extent without causing the New Option to become subject to any excise tax or other penalty. In the event the arbitrator has not issued a determination prior to the excise tax or penalty becoming due or if such penalty or excise tax is otherwise owed for any reason, notwithstanding any contrary revision of law, the Company shall be permitted to implement such modifications to the design of the Affected Option as it considers to be necessary to avoid the excise tax or penalty. The Company shall have a reasonable period of time following the issuance of the arbitrator's determination to implement the New Option. Notwithstanding the foregoing, the provisions of this Paragraph shall not be effective if, after the effective date of this Agreement, the Company enters into any new or amended collective bargaining agreement having a term of three (3) years or more with any union group that does not contain a provision substantially similar to this Paragraph.

If any Option is modified or eliminated pursuant to this Paragraph, the parties will meet and confer to determine how the savings, if any, from such modifications will accrue to Pilots. The avoidance of any excise tax that would have otherwise been applied will not be considered in the calculation of any savings. If the parties cannot agree on whether cost savings exist or how to distribute said savings, the matter may be referred to an arbitrator as specified by the process in this Paragraph. The arbitrator's authority shall be limited to the issue of determining whether such savings exist and, if so, how such savings are to be distributed. The arbitrator shall have no other authority, and in no event shall the arbitrator order modifications to or reinstitution's of a plan.

 

I don't think they can eliminate employee health care plans without paying pretty big fines. The ACA requires that they carry health insurance, seeing as though they are a "large employer".

I am fortunate that my wife is a Federal government employee and we are on her FEHB plan. It's what I had when I was full-time Reserves...but most non-government employee plans are not anywhere near as good. The LUS health care plans were just about as good as the FEHB plan, and only a little bit more expensive. The AA plans are about $200/month more expensive and not quite as good.

 

I don't think they will elimate healthcare, just significantly degrade the plans available. I'll be voting No for that reason alone.