New Pay Rates For Those Interested
01-31-2015, 03:06 PM
#91
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
Originally Posted by NuGuy
Report early, one leg. 12 hour "day over". Red eye back. 12 hour day over, late departure to west time zone, 12 hour layover. Wash, rinse, repeat. 4 day trip with 5 duty periods that would have paid 26:15 hours now pays 21.
Nu
Looking at our 756 Feb pairings, I don't see any 4 day trips with 5 duty periods. Might be something to do with "Work Rules"..
Oh, and the lowest paid trip is 20:18 (Domestic) and the highest is 33:16!
Pay Rates are great but they are only a part of the overall package. It's about how much your W-2 is for the amount of work performed.
Oh, and we (UAL) have plenty of 4 day International trips that pay 20:00 due to sitting over there for 48hrs. But again, you could get 4 of those 4 day trips for 80hrs pay but 8 actual duty periods, 68hrs flown and 14 or 15 days off.. Big Picture~
[At DAL, would those same 4 day European trips pay 21hrs?, for 84hrs in the month?]
Time will tell what management will try and push come contract time at DAL and UAL now that AMR has set a lower bar.
Motch
01-31-2015, 05:54 PM
#92
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 104
Originally Posted by NuGuy
Funny thing about trip construction and soft time (minimums, rigs, etc):
Every airline uses computers to generate trips. The program they use has one priority above all: minimize soft time. You can't take the trips you currently fly and make any kind of assumption than they'll stay the same, and you just get paid more. I guarantee it doesn't work like that.
As an example: At DAL, until relatively recently, there was only a duty period average of 5:15. That meant that 3 day trips that paid 10:30 were not only possible, but fairly common, and you got to appreciate a nice 30 hour layover somewhere.
The answer? Average Daily Guarentee. Every calendar day pays 5:15 (with some exception). We'll trade that bad old duty period average for a daily average and fixed the problem, right?
Well, sorta. The law of unintended consequences is always in effect.
Now the computer has a whole new set of restrictions to play with in order to minimize soft time...but the DPA has been deleted. So what's the computer to do? Ah ha! Multiple duty periods in a calendar day!
Report early, one leg. 12 hour "day over". Red eye back. 12 hour day over, late departure to west time zone, 12 hour layover. Wash, rinse, repeat. 4 day trip with 5 duty periods that would have paid 26:15 hours now pays 21.
Point is every change has a consequence, and you can't use the current trips as any kind of guide.
Nu
Every airline uses computers to generate trips. The program they use has one priority above all: minimize soft time. You can't take the trips you currently fly and make any kind of assumption than they'll stay the same, and you just get paid more. I guarantee it doesn't work like that.
As an example: At DAL, until relatively recently, there was only a duty period average of 5:15. That meant that 3 day trips that paid 10:30 were not only possible, but fairly common, and you got to appreciate a nice 30 hour layover somewhere.
The answer? Average Daily Guarentee. Every calendar day pays 5:15 (with some exception). We'll trade that bad old duty period average for a daily average and fixed the problem, right?
Well, sorta. The law of unintended consequences is always in effect.
Now the computer has a whole new set of restrictions to play with in order to minimize soft time...but the DPA has been deleted. So what's the computer to do? Ah ha! Multiple duty periods in a calendar day!
Report early, one leg. 12 hour "day over". Red eye back. 12 hour day over, late departure to west time zone, 12 hour layover. Wash, rinse, repeat. 4 day trip with 5 duty periods that would have paid 26:15 hours now pays 21.
Point is every change has a consequence, and you can't use the current trips as any kind of guide.
Nu
02-01-2015, 01:24 PM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,838
Originally Posted by horrido27
Can you please post an actual pairing.. would like to see it and compare with the duty rigs and min pay we have a UAL.
Looking at our 756 Feb pairings, I don't see any 4 day trips with 5 duty periods. Might be something to do with "Work Rules"..
Oh, and the lowest paid trip is 20:18 (Domestic) and the highest is 33:16!
Pay Rates are great but they are only a part of the overall package. It's about how much your W-2 is for the amount of work performed.
Oh, and we (UAL) have plenty of 4 day International trips that pay 20:00 due to sitting over there for 48hrs. But again, you could get 4 of those 4 day trips for 80hrs pay but 8 actual duty periods, 68hrs flown and 14 or 15 days off.. Big Picture~
[At DAL, would those same 4 day European trips pay 21hrs?, for 84hrs in the month?]
Time will tell what management will try and push come contract time at DAL and UAL now that AMR has set a lower bar.
Motch
Looking at our 756 Feb pairings, I don't see any 4 day trips with 5 duty periods. Might be something to do with "Work Rules"..
Oh, and the lowest paid trip is 20:18 (Domestic) and the highest is 33:16!
Pay Rates are great but they are only a part of the overall package. It's about how much your W-2 is for the amount of work performed.
Oh, and we (UAL) have plenty of 4 day International trips that pay 20:00 due to sitting over there for 48hrs. But again, you could get 4 of those 4 day trips for 80hrs pay but 8 actual duty periods, 68hrs flown and 14 or 15 days off.. Big Picture~
[At DAL, would those same 4 day European trips pay 21hrs?, for 84hrs in the month?]
Time will tell what management will try and push come contract time at DAL and UAL now that AMR has set a lower bar.
Motch
4 days/5 duty periods/6 legs. Block time 20 and change. Total credit 22 and change. Early report (not commutable), 1 leg, dayover, redeye, dayover, transcon to west coast, RON, two legs to east coast, RON, 1 leg done at noon. No layover/dayover longer than 13 hours.
If UAL doesn't build trips like this, then it is very possible that your pay/credit/trip construction rules either prevent (a "no mid-trip redeyes" rule, for example) it or makes it unappealing to them. If the DAL DPA was still in effect vs the ADG, this trip would have paid 26+, and the trip wouldn't exist because the amount of soft time would probably have made other solutions cheaper for the computer.
My point is that swapping out soft time rules will not yield the same results as you currently have. The ADG is great, and is probably an overall win, but....trip construction software is VERY good at working in the corners, and when you delete parameters, it could have an unexpected consequence.
Nu
Last edited by NuGuy; 02-01-2015 at 01:34 PM.
02-01-2015, 02:00 PM
#94
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Position: Reverse Cowgirl
Posts: 545
Originally Posted by joel payne
Here is a link to the contract, if it hasn't been posted already. I had to reload it each time I checked it to get it to work. Put you to sleep pretty quickly-
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzB...RzU0ZnWVU/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzB...RzU0ZnWVU/view
02-02-2015, 04:55 AM
#98
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: 320 Captain
Posts: 634
Originally Posted by NuGuy
Won't post the actual pairing, BUT:
4 days/5 duty periods/6 legs. Block time 20 and change. Total credit 22 and change. Early report (not commutable), 1 leg, dayover, redeye, dayover, transcon to west coast, RON, two legs to east coast, RON, 1 leg done at noon. No layover/dayover longer than 13 hours.
If UAL doesn't build trips like this, then it is very possible that your pay/credit/trip construction rules either prevent (a "no mid-trip redeyes" rule, for example) it or makes it unappealing to them. If the DAL DPA was still in effect vs the ADG, this trip would have paid 26+, and the trip wouldn't exist because the amount of soft time would probably have made other solutions cheaper for the computer.
My point is that swapping out soft time rules will not yield the same results as you currently have. The ADG is great, and is probably an overall win, but....trip construction software is VERY good at working in the corners, and when you delete parameters, it could have an unexpected consequence.
Nu
4 days/5 duty periods/6 legs. Block time 20 and change. Total credit 22 and change. Early report (not commutable), 1 leg, dayover, redeye, dayover, transcon to west coast, RON, two legs to east coast, RON, 1 leg done at noon. No layover/dayover longer than 13 hours.
If UAL doesn't build trips like this, then it is very possible that your pay/credit/trip construction rules either prevent (a "no mid-trip redeyes" rule, for example) it or makes it unappealing to them. If the DAL DPA was still in effect vs the ADG, this trip would have paid 26+, and the trip wouldn't exist because the amount of soft time would probably have made other solutions cheaper for the computer.
My point is that swapping out soft time rules will not yield the same results as you currently have. The ADG is great, and is probably an overall win, but....trip construction software is VERY good at working in the corners, and when you delete parameters, it could have an unexpected consequence.
Nu
The biggest thing limiting UAL's ability to build a trip like your example is our contractual restriction on no more then 4 duty periods domestically per trip.
We do mid pairing red eyes. We do one day trips of early morning flight from DCA/BWI to ORD, 12 hour layover, one leg back. It pays 5 hours (due to 5 per calendar day). Under our old contract of 5 hr per duty period it would have paid 10 hours. But the company took advantage of the contractual change to build the trips as cost effective to them.
Don't assume your trips today, will look like that in the future with any new contractual changes.
02-02-2015, 07:52 AM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 610
Originally Posted by A321
The entire point of the 717 discussion was this:
-AA isn't going to get 717s we know that
-AA can now order a boatload of E195s or CS100s (range to go coast to coast) and operate them at a significant discount to Delta.
-DL 12 yr Capt rate: $195
-AA 2nd yr Capt rate: $137 (many captains on the E190 currently are in their 2nd-3rd year, and many spots go unfilled each bid) 12 year rate: $149
Stay tuned....
http://commercialaircraft.bombardier...S100_EN_V1.pdf
Cseries | Range Capabilities - Commercial Aircraft - Bombardier
-AA isn't going to get 717s we know that
-AA can now order a boatload of E195s or CS100s (range to go coast to coast) and operate them at a significant discount to Delta.
-DL 12 yr Capt rate: $195
-AA 2nd yr Capt rate: $137 (many captains on the E190 currently are in their 2nd-3rd year, and many spots go unfilled each bid) 12 year rate: $149
Stay tuned....
http://commercialaircraft.bombardier...S100_EN_V1.pdf
Cseries | Range Capabilities - Commercial Aircraft - Bombardier
88*$190= $16,720
70*$87= $6,090
Delta= 158 airplanes@ $22,810 per hour for the left seat.
AA= 158 airplanes*$149= $23,542 per hour for the left seat.
Hardly a corporate advantage, Delta has just chosen to hide its ugly pay rates at a different company.
02-02-2015, 08:28 AM
#100
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
Originally Posted by NuGuy
Won't post the actual pairing, BUT:
4 days/5 duty periods/6 legs. Block time 20 and change. Total credit 22 and change. Early report (not commutable), 1 leg, dayover, redeye, dayover, transcon to west coast, RON, two legs to east coast, RON, 1 leg done at noon. No layover/dayover longer than 13 hours.
If UAL doesn't build trips like this, then it is very possible that your pay/credit/trip construction rules either prevent (a "no mid-trip redeyes" rule, for example) it or makes it unappealing to them. If the DAL DPA was still in effect vs the ADG, this trip would have paid 26+, and the trip wouldn't exist because the amount of soft time would probably have made other solutions cheaper for the computer.
My point is that swapping out soft time rules will not yield the same results as you currently have. The ADG is great, and is probably an overall win, but....trip construction software is VERY good at working in the corners, and when you delete parameters, it could have an unexpected consequence.
Nu
4 days/5 duty periods/6 legs. Block time 20 and change. Total credit 22 and change. Early report (not commutable), 1 leg, dayover, redeye, dayover, transcon to west coast, RON, two legs to east coast, RON, 1 leg done at noon. No layover/dayover longer than 13 hours.
If UAL doesn't build trips like this, then it is very possible that your pay/credit/trip construction rules either prevent (a "no mid-trip redeyes" rule, for example) it or makes it unappealing to them. If the DAL DPA was still in effect vs the ADG, this trip would have paid 26+, and the trip wouldn't exist because the amount of soft time would probably have made other solutions cheaper for the computer.
My point is that swapping out soft time rules will not yield the same results as you currently have. The ADG is great, and is probably an overall win, but....trip construction software is VERY good at working in the corners, and when you delete parameters, it could have an unexpected consequence.
Nu
Yeah, sounds like a weird trip and as C11DCA pointed out, we have some weird stuff too. Guess my only question is, is the trip you mention the norm or just an unexpected result but one that happens rarely?
On my fleet, we (LCAL) use to do a 3 day GRU. Paid @19:40 and went super senior.. as you left in the evening on day 1, landed there in the morning.. 12 hr rest and left at night returning in the early am on day 3.
Now..
4 day that pays 20:00hrs.
It happens~
Motch
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