NK Bumble Bee

The note in the instructions used to say not to log PIC and Dual concurrently, pick one. Now the note only says comply with 61.51. Is it now acceptable to log it consistent with the logbook where PIC is logged while getting training for additional ratings, like instrument or commercial, also entered at dual received?

60av8tor

Are you trying to squeeze into something with min PIC hours? Merely my opinion, but the PIC time that employers want to talk about is time that you were a real PIC - signed for the airplane, making the final decisions when the $hit hits the fan, etc. Even if sole manipulator is administratively legal, it's still cheesy to include it.

NK Bumble Bee

No, more than qualified. Just would like my logbook totals to match my airline apps. Trying to do it their way appropriately.

rickair7777

Do not add sole manipulator PIC into totals for any potential employer other than the FAA.

You can log student solo as real PIC.

I solved the discrepancy issue by creating a "sole manipulator" PIC column in my electronic logbook.

So Airline Apps PIC + Dual Given/IP = Airline Apps Total PIC

Airline Apps Total PIC + Sole Man = your logbook PIC

Most of us have about 100 hours of sole man.

B727DRVR

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that he just doesn't want to add either the Dual Time or PIC time together as the total duration would be wrong.

Like when you are receiving Dual when you are practicing your commercial maneuvers, do you have to log that as Dual or PIC? It shouldn't be both as you columns and rows won't add up. You already have a Private License at that point, so why wouldn't it be PIC?

rickair7777

Not sure what you're saying here.

Log it as dual received.

You can also, per FAR 61.51, log it as PIC since you're the "sole manipulator" of the controls of an airplane you're rated in. But nobody other than the FAA considers that to be "real" PIC, since you were not actually in command, and did not "sign for the airplane". Most employers WILL NOT accept 61.51 Sole Man. PIC as actual PIC, and they might even send you home for trying to claim it.

My recommendation is to create a separate column for Sole Man. PIC, and reserve the real PIC column for flights where you were actually in command (all solo counts, including student pilot).

Since your paper logbook is probably already hopelessly jacked up, just add the new column to your electronic logbook and keep it separate there.

Paper Total PIC = elec. Real PIC + elec. Sole Man. PIC

Job App PIC = Real PIC + Dual Given

Job App Total Time = Job App PIC + SIC + Sole Man. PIC

Also never log SIC unless the airplane is type-rated for an SIC. Safety pilot in a skyhawk is not SIC. If you want to really screw yourself...log Sole Man. PIC while serving as SIC on an airliner.

You could also remove PIC from dual-given flights. It is real PIC, but airline employers typically account for it separately so it might make your math easier when filling out apps. Otherwise you'll have to subtract out all of your dual given every time you fill out or update a job application. This could be a real PITA if you continue to instruct on a regular basis. If not, you'll only have to add up your dual-given PIC from CFI days once, and make a note of that number to subtract from your PIC total.

60av8tor

Rickair answered it all in his last post. Yes it is FAR PIC, but not the PIC time employers want to discuss during an interview when they ask, "tell me about a time you were PIC and..."

Similarly, I know what my sole manipulator total is and subtract it from my PIC on apps and resumes. Even though it is included in my PIC total in my paper logbooks, I merely mention the reason for the difference.

NK Bumble Bee

Thanks guys, that's what I was looking for as far as where to solve the discrepancy between logbook and apps.

B727DRVR

OK Rick,

Great points... But what if you are an MEI giving instruction to someone who is not multi-engine rated? There HAS to be a PIC on the aircraft, and that student can't be the PIC.... So doesn't the MEI have to be the PIC and log it as such? Just like a CFII flying in instrument conditions with a non-instrument rated student. How could that multi-engine aircraft legally move without a multi-engine rated pilot? Somebody has to be the PIC.... And it must be the MEI. How could it be logged any other way?

And thanks always going deeper and challenging us with great questions and insight.

NK Bumble Bee

I got a reply from the customer support at airline apps and found that they HAVE changed the format to support the PIC requirements around the 1500 hour rule and ATP rules.

You ARE supposed to report your times as they are logged under 61.51, including concurrent logging of PIC and DUAL while obtaining an additional rating. Because of this change you know have to do your own total time in each aircraft - previously it would total it for you since there was no concurrent logging. Instructor time is still automatically converted into PIC time in the summary and should not be reported as PIC time in the aircraft section.

Clear as mud? Hope this helps others who are updating airline apps.