First Checkride Bust
#21
No one should be entering anything in your logbook but you. Yes an Instructor or Check Airman can sign your logbook or enter an endorsement but no where in is written that they are required or should enter a "checkride or end of course result " in your logbook. If someone else on this forum can enlighten me on this please do. This crap has been happening for a long time and needs to be addressed!!!
You are totally right, but a savvy person could look at the logbook, look at the lesson number, see that in the course you got to lesson 29, the highest number, then did a previous lesson, then did lesson 29 again. That doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out. Heck, I'd rather see this, since it tells me the school was doing things right and not just passing people arbitrarily, maybe an indicator of quality rather than being just a pilot-mill.
Last edited by JamesNoBrakes; 01-20-2019 at 08:47 PM.
#22
Yeah...it's not too late until the gear doors come off.
But those can be replaced.
Worst case for Vlo, the gear struggles to operate; there are far bigger things to worry about, like completing your procedure, recognizing the problem, and addressing it, which you did.
Calling the game on account of rain for 2 knots...is what in the scientific world we call chicken ****.
But those can be replaced.
Worst case for Vlo, the gear struggles to operate; there are far bigger things to worry about, like completing your procedure, recognizing the problem, and addressing it, which you did.
Calling the game on account of rain for 2 knots...is what in the scientific world we call chicken ****.
#23
No one should be entering anything in your logbook but you. Yes an Instructor or Check Airman can sign your logbook or enter an endorsement but no where in is written that they are required or should enter a "checkride or end of course result " in your logbook. If someone else on this forum can enlighten me on this please do. This crap has been happening for a long time and needs to be addressed!!!
Then the student will typically log the *incomplete* EOC, at least logging the flight time. In 141 it might get logged as dual given, in 61 it will not.
Then there will be remedial training prior to the next sign off, *typically* also logged as such.
If you know the date the cert was issued, you can backtrack fairly easily. You're right that the logbook doesn't *have* to include all of that detail in 141, but it inevitably will. Instructors will CYA, I sure as hell would. If a student ever refused to let me document training in his book, that would be the last training he ever got from me. Neither my logbook, not any student's of mine, will ever serve as "documentation" that I omitted training. If it's not in writing, the lawyers will say it never happened.
#24
There will be an entry for final checkride prep dual instruction prior to sign off. Doesn't *have* to say it's checkride prep but there's typically something to that effect. It will be logged in detail in the schools 121 records, that's required.
Then the student will typically log the *incomplete* EOC, at least logging the flight time. In 141 it might get logged as dual given, in 61 it will not.
Then there will be remedial training prior to the next sign off, *typically* also logged as such.
If you know the date the cert was issued, you can backtrack fairly easily. You're right that the logbook doesn't *have* to include all of that detail in 141, but it inevitably will. Instructors will CYA, I sure as hell would. If a student ever refused to let me document training in his book, that would be the last training he ever got from me. Neither my logbook, not any student's of mine, will ever serve as "documentation" that I omitted training. If it's not in writing, the lawyers will say it never happened.
Then the student will typically log the *incomplete* EOC, at least logging the flight time. In 141 it might get logged as dual given, in 61 it will not.
Then there will be remedial training prior to the next sign off, *typically* also logged as such.
If you know the date the cert was issued, you can backtrack fairly easily. You're right that the logbook doesn't *have* to include all of that detail in 141, but it inevitably will. Instructors will CYA, I sure as hell would. If a student ever refused to let me document training in his book, that would be the last training he ever got from me. Neither my logbook, not any student's of mine, will ever serve as "documentation" that I omitted training. If it's not in writing, the lawyers will say it never happened.
If it were part 61, yes you'd need to CYA yourself more, because the regs require you to describe what training was provided and there is no "approved course", so you have to be specific as to the maneuvers and/or ground training.
But yeah, again it's easy for someone to piece it together just looking at unit numbers and dates.
Good discussion.
#25
That doesn’t mean they failed. Sometimes you get a weather delay and don’t have enough time to finish everything before th next student needs th plane. Then you have to do the rest of the lesson another time. Some instructors don’t always indicate that they weren’t able to finish everything in one flight.
#26
The only thing I've ever seen put in 99.9% of the time in comments section for a 141 lesson, is the course and lesson/unit number, in addition to the required hours and info from 61.51. There is no "complete" or "incomplete" or "remedial" or "checkride prep", anything else goes in the 141 training records. Everything is tracked in 141 by the lesson. No need to add more information than necessary. That is CYA, adding anything more opens you up to liability IME. You sign an endorsement that you have trained the person and they are proficient for the checkride, that right there is the statement, traceable to the unit/lesson you performed as the proof.
If it were part 61, yes you'd need to CYA yourself more, because the regs require you to describe what training was provided and there is no "approved course", so you have to be specific as to the maneuvers and/or ground training.
But yeah, again it's easy for someone to piece it together just looking at unit numbers and dates.
Good discussion.
If it were part 61, yes you'd need to CYA yourself more, because the regs require you to describe what training was provided and there is no "approved course", so you have to be specific as to the maneuvers and/or ground training.
But yeah, again it's easy for someone to piece it together just looking at unit numbers and dates.
Good discussion.
Agree there's essentially no requirement to log the detailed training in 141 (other than 141 records), but I bet I could spot a repeated EOC 99% of the time regardless.
You getting paid these days?
#27
That doesn’t mean they failed. Sometimes you get a weather delay and don’t have enough time to finish everything before th next student needs th plane. Then you have to do the rest of the lesson another time. Some instructors don’t always indicate that they weren’t able to finish everything in one flight.
But you are totally right that there could have been a mechanical issue, student could have gotten sick, etc. In those cases, it's rare to go back and do a previous lesson in between, but even that does happen occasionally, it's just that given the sequence of events in the logbook, it's also highly likely that there was a failure on the end of course lesson. If someone was really paying attention, they could ask some questions about those units.
Rickair7777: no one is getting paid, not until government re-opens!
#28
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,023
It's nothing to do with treating anything as cavalier, nor did I suggest or insinuate any such thing.
The student or applicant who dips below glideslope, and upon recognition announces and states "correcting" shouldn't be cut down where he stands, if he's operating safely. There's a bigger picture to see.
It may be the difference in experience and the hall-monitor ready to jump down the throat of an applicant for one knot difference, one degree, one foot, even one dot. I'd much rather see, per current guidance, that the student recognizes the error and corrects it, and if they do, move on.
#29
The original poster stated that he's got a digital display in the aircraft, and reasoned that there's no question a value has been exceeded because the specific airspeed to the knot is displayed. The problem is that he's in a little, cheap, light airplane that doesn't feature an air data computer and doesn't account for installation error on that specific aircraft, and the truth is that the speeds just aren't that precise.
#30
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 73
I wouldn't worry about it delaying your progression to a legacy. I had two checkride failures including a pt.61 pink slip and was recently hired by FedEx. I entered the airlines 4 years ago as a 1000 hour r-atp. List it, be humble, and show how you've learned from it.
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