Failed checkride
09-04-2019, 09:58 AM
#12
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,211
Originally Posted by sflpilot
I’m not sure about this one but for the people that did 141 training and took stage checks and an end of course check. Would that also be reportable?
But regarding EOC ,if they ask the question on an application or at an interview, the conventional wisdom is to be honest. Show me your logbook and I can find where you got signed off, took an EOC check flight, logged it as "training", got a remedial flight or two, signed off again, and then passed the second attempt. If I can spot it, so can the pros.
Knowing you went to a 141 school, they might ask that very question at the interview... awkward if you didn't report the failure on the application.
But the consensus is that intermediate stage checks are not what they mean when they ask about failures. I would not report those, although ultimately it's the interviewer who decides what his question really meant. But I don't even remember if ever had an incomplete stage check, so that would be hard for me to answer.
09-04-2019, 10:06 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: 787
Posts: 454
I failed two check rides, initial instrument and S/E commercial. These happened at a 61 school (guess which one 
). I always disclose my failures, and discuss the learnings...never been a problem. I do have a squeaky clean part 121 record...so far these are my only blemishes.
That being said, I recently used the FAA's new tool to lookup my own pilot records, and neither 'notice of disapproval' appears. I am obviously not going to change my story on my failures, but was wondering if this would look funny to the airline when they run my pilot background.
Thanks!
). I always disclose my failures, and discuss the learnings...never been a problem. I do have a squeaky clean part 121 record...so far these are my only blemishes. That being said, I recently used the FAA's new tool to lookup my own pilot records, and neither 'notice of disapproval' appears. I am obviously not going to change my story on my failures, but was wondering if this would look funny to the airline when they run my pilot background.
Thanks!
09-04-2019, 10:48 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 155
Originally Posted by rickair7777
I don't know if the oral bust would be on PRIA. Since you were typed there would not be an FAA pink slip.
A failed fed observation would not appear on PRIA. I don't think extra IOE appears, IIRC there would be one line for all of the IOE performed during upgrade. You would see something like this...
Initial Line Check Date
Initial Fed Observation Date (Examiner Name)
IOE Date 48:30 hours
Any extra IOE would just be part of the total. But a savvy reviewer might know how much IOE is normal at your airline. For regionals it's usually very close to the legal min, an extra 3-4 day trip would be a flag for sure.
Bottom line, an oral for a type you already have may not be PRIA reportable, and an upgrade Fed observation is definitely not PRIA reportable. Get a copy of your PRIA report from your current airline.
But that does not mean it's OK to lie to an airline, they ask "have you ever failed...", not "have you ever failed a PRIA reportable event".
If you lie and get caught (sometimes they can read between the lines) you will 100% lose the job offer, or if already employed 100% get fired. In the later case you'll slink back to the right seat of an RJ, never to be seen at a major again... getting fired for lying IS reportable on PRIA.
A failed fed observation would not appear on PRIA. I don't think extra IOE appears, IIRC there would be one line for all of the IOE performed during upgrade. You would see something like this...
Initial Line Check Date
Initial Fed Observation Date (Examiner Name)
IOE Date 48:30 hours
Any extra IOE would just be part of the total. But a savvy reviewer might know how much IOE is normal at your airline. For regionals it's usually very close to the legal min, an extra 3-4 day trip would be a flag for sure.
Bottom line, an oral for a type you already have may not be PRIA reportable, and an upgrade Fed observation is definitely not PRIA reportable. Get a copy of your PRIA report from your current airline.
But that does not mean it's OK to lie to an airline, they ask "have you ever failed...", not "have you ever failed a PRIA reportable event".
If you lie and get caught (sometimes they can read between the lines) you will 100% lose the job offer, or if already employed 100% get fired. In the later case you'll slink back to the right seat of an RJ, never to be seen at a major again... getting fired for lying IS reportable on PRIA.
Thank you for taking the time to respond!
09-04-2019, 11:36 AM
#15
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,453
Originally Posted by rickair7777
I don't know if the oral bust would be on PRIA. Since you were typed there would not be an FAA pink slip.
A failed fed observation would not appear on PRIA. I don't think extra IOE appears, IIRC there would be one line for all of the IOE performed during upgrade. You would see something like this...
Initial Line Check Date
Initial Fed Observation Date (Examiner Name)
IOE Date 48:30 hours
Any extra IOE would just be part of the total. But a savvy reviewer might know how much IOE is normal at your airline. For regionals it's usually very close to the legal min, an extra 3-4 day trip would be a flag for sure.
Bottom line, an oral for a type you already have may not be PRIA reportable, and an upgrade Fed observation is definitely not PRIA reportable. Get a copy of your PRIA report from your current airline.
But that does not mean it's OK to lie to an airline, they ask "have you ever failed...", not "have you ever failed a PRIA reportable event".
If you lie and get caught (sometimes they can read between the lines) you will 100% lose the job offer, or if already employed 100% get fired. In the later case you'll slink back to the right seat of an RJ, never to be seen at a major again... getting fired for lying IS reportable on PRIA.
A failed fed observation would not appear on PRIA. I don't think extra IOE appears, IIRC there would be one line for all of the IOE performed during upgrade. You would see something like this...
Initial Line Check Date
Initial Fed Observation Date (Examiner Name)
IOE Date 48:30 hours
Any extra IOE would just be part of the total. But a savvy reviewer might know how much IOE is normal at your airline. For regionals it's usually very close to the legal min, an extra 3-4 day trip would be a flag for sure.
Bottom line, an oral for a type you already have may not be PRIA reportable, and an upgrade Fed observation is definitely not PRIA reportable. Get a copy of your PRIA report from your current airline.
But that does not mean it's OK to lie to an airline, they ask "have you ever failed...", not "have you ever failed a PRIA reportable event".
If you lie and get caught (sometimes they can read between the lines) you will 100% lose the job offer, or if already employed 100% get fired. In the later case you'll slink back to the right seat of an RJ, never to be seen at a major again... getting fired for lying IS reportable on PRIA.
PRIA is not just FAA records, it's also your previous airlines furnishing all training records.
Failed fed ride/oral/whatever part of an evaluation is 100% reportable in PRIA.
"(2) Records concerning qualifications, proficiency, or professional competence of the
individual, including comments and evaluations made by a check airman designated under
§ 121.411, § 125.295, or § 135.337. For example, documents that show the individual’s
qualifications as instructor/evaluator, check airman, or examiner; and records of the individual’s
proficiency checks (recurring checks for captain, first officer, or line checks). "
It's safe to assume that every single training/testing event when there's a check airman involved will be included in your PRIA package.
09-04-2019, 12:50 PM
#16
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,211
Originally Posted by FlyPurdue
I failed two check rides, initial instrument and S/E commercial. These happened at a 61 school (guess which one ). I always disclose my failures, and discuss the learnings...never been a problem. I do have a squeaky clean part 121 record...so far these are my only blemishes.
That being said, I recently used the FAA's new tool to lookup my own pilot records, and neither 'notice of disapproval' appears. I am obviously not going to change my story on my failures, but was wondering if this would look funny to the airline when they run my pilot background.
Thanks!
). I always disclose my failures, and discuss the learnings...never been a problem. I do have a squeaky clean part 121 record...so far these are my only blemishes. That being said, I recently used the FAA's new tool to lookup my own pilot records, and neither 'notice of disapproval' appears. I am obviously not going to change my story on my failures, but was wondering if this would look funny to the airline when they run my pilot background.
Thanks!
Airlines won't mind if you report something which is missing in the Db, they know how the gubmint works.
09-04-2019, 12:57 PM
#17
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,211
Originally Posted by dera
I think we are getting a few things mixed up here.
PRIA is not just FAA records, it's also your previous airlines furnishing all training records.
Failed fed ride/oral/whatever part of an evaluation is 100% reportable in PRIA.
"(2) Records concerning qualifications, proficiency, or professional competence of the
individual, including comments and evaluations made by a check airman designated under
§ 121.411, § 125.295, or § 135.337. For example, documents that show the individual’s
qualifications as instructor/evaluator, check airman, or examiner; and records of the individual’s
proficiency checks (recurring checks for captain, first officer, or line checks). "
It's safe to assume that every single training/testing event when there's a check airman involved will be included in your PRIA package.
PRIA is not just FAA records, it's also your previous airlines furnishing all training records.
Failed fed ride/oral/whatever part of an evaluation is 100% reportable in PRIA.
"(2) Records concerning qualifications, proficiency, or professional competence of the
individual, including comments and evaluations made by a check airman designated under
§ 121.411, § 125.295, or § 135.337. For example, documents that show the individual’s
qualifications as instructor/evaluator, check airman, or examiner; and records of the individual’s
proficiency checks (recurring checks for captain, first officer, or line checks). "
It's safe to assume that every single training/testing event when there's a check airman involved will be included in your PRIA package.
I know from previous experience with training and PRIA records that...
Fed observation is NOT a checkride and is NOT reported via PRIA if "incomplete". It gets entered into PRIA only when completed, never when incomplete. Technically it is an observation of the training/checking process, so could be incomplete for reasons unrelated to applicant performance. In theory. In reality it's more of a line check of both applicant and check airman.
Not sure about a failed oral for a type you already have. I think no for PRIA, but if you completely failed the entire upgrade process that would go in PRIA. They also don't report if you have to repeat a sim session along the way either.
Whether you admit an incomplete Fed observation to an airline is up to you... but think about how you're going to respond at the interview if they ask "looks like your IOE was longer than what we're used to seeing. Did you have any problems with that?"
09-04-2019, 02:50 PM
#18
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,453
Originally Posted by rickair7777
Yes, I know what PRIA is, not mixing anything up. PRIA is a process which pulls data from previous employers, the FAA, and the NDR.
I know from previous experience with training and PRIA records that...
Fed observation is NOT a checkride and is NOT reported via PRIA if "incomplete". It gets entered into PRIA only when completed, never when incomplete. Technically it is an observation of the training/checking process, so could be incomplete for reasons unrelated to applicant performance. In theory. In reality it's more of a line check of both applicant and check airman.
Not sure about a failed oral for a type you already have. I think no for PRIA, but if you completely failed the entire upgrade process that would go in PRIA. They also don't report if you have to repeat a sim session along the way either.
Whether you admit an incomplete Fed observation to an airline is up to you... but think about how you're going to respond at the interview if they ask "looks like your IOE was longer than what we're used to seeing. Did you have any problems with that?"
I know from previous experience with training and PRIA records that...
Fed observation is NOT a checkride and is NOT reported via PRIA if "incomplete". It gets entered into PRIA only when completed, never when incomplete. Technically it is an observation of the training/checking process, so could be incomplete for reasons unrelated to applicant performance. In theory. In reality it's more of a line check of both applicant and check airman.
Not sure about a failed oral for a type you already have. I think no for PRIA, but if you completely failed the entire upgrade process that would go in PRIA. They also don't report if you have to repeat a sim session along the way either.
Whether you admit an incomplete Fed observation to an airline is up to you... but think about how you're going to respond at the interview if they ask "looks like your IOE was longer than what we're used to seeing. Did you have any problems with that?"
If you unsat that, it will be in your PRIA.
If you have a failed event with a check airman, it does not matter what you call it, it will be in your PRIA. So if your failed oral was with a check airman, it's in your PRIA. PRIA is very clear about this.
By absolute minimum, any event you had with a check airman will be in your PRIA. The "qualifications, proficiency, or professional competence" leaves some leeway, but the "including comments and evaluations by a check airman" is clear.
My previous shop included every single simulator training report in the PRIA. Nothing prevents them from doing that.
09-04-2019, 06:01 PM
#19
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,211
Originally Posted by dera
I was using inaccurate wording. By fed ride, I meant 121.440(b) line check which often is done with the 121.434(c)(1)(ii) fed ride.
If you unsat that, it will be in your PRIA.
If you have a failed event with a check airman, it does not matter what you call it, it will be in your PRIA. So if your failed oral was with a check airman, it's in your PRIA. PRIA is very clear about this.
If you unsat that, it will be in your PRIA.
If you have a failed event with a check airman, it does not matter what you call it, it will be in your PRIA. So if your failed oral was with a check airman, it's in your PRIA. PRIA is very clear about this.
The Fed ride is usually done immediately after the line check, near the end of IOE but can technically be done at any time during IOE. It's more about observing the LCA doing HIS job, but the LCA may need to require more IOE if that's what it takes. That's the intent.
09-04-2019, 10:52 PM
#20
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,453
Originally Posted by rickair7777
The line check part is normally done on the leg prior to the Fed ride. Failing that would result in a PRIA entry like any other line check. But there is a workaround from the LCA perspective that I won't get into here.
The Fed ride is usually done immediately after the line check, near the end of IOE but can technically be done at any time during IOE. It's more about observing the LCA doing HIS job, but the LCA may need to require more IOE if that's what it takes. That's the intent.
The Fed ride is usually done immediately after the line check, near the end of IOE but can technically be done at any time during IOE. It's more about observing the LCA doing HIS job, but the LCA may need to require more IOE if that's what it takes. That's the intent.
I'm talking about what the letter of this law says. Your fed ride, if it results in more IOE, technically does go to your PRIA, because it includes "comments" by the check airman.
A failed oral, no matter if you have the type or not, most definitely is a PRIA event. Unless it's some pseudo-oral done by a company guy who is not a check airman. If it's with a check airman, it will be in your PRIA. PRIA has no carveouts for events with check airmen.
My main point is, and I know you agree with me, that you should never, ever lie in any application. Don't ever think "will this be in my PRIA" because the chances are it will be.
The act gives air carriers a broad spectrum of data they can provide. My previous shop included every single training event. Every sim session, everything. It was almost 100 pages of records and I was there for a year.
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