K4 Pilots Declaration Of Independance !
08-03-2017, 06:46 PM
#51
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by fr8ghtdawg
I don't know where you got your facts but it takes year 9 before a UPS FO makes more then a Kalitta Captain. By year 3 of the new contract, No UPS FO pay surpasses Kalitta Captain pay.
08-03-2017, 07:13 PM
#53
Old P-3 IFE
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: B744 FO
Posts: 290
Originally Posted by RyeMex
I can certainly empathize with the frustration of the K4 crewmembers for how their TA was rolled out. However, if your frustration is with the Executive Board, why not just focus your efforts on replacing them at the end of the year?
The current proposed strategy of decertifying seems analogous to being upset at a country's government and deciding to renounce your citizenship and move when there is the opportunity to just vote a new government into office in a mere 4 months.
It would seem to me as though nothing would make the management of DHL and Amazon happier than to see a ramp's solidarity splintering, especially this close to Q4.
Just my two cents. I hope that the K4 pilots are able to decide on what course of action is best for them, and I hope that that course is to remain unified with your Brothers and Sisters at 1224.
The current proposed strategy of decertifying seems analogous to being upset at a country's government and deciding to renounce your citizenship and move when there is the opportunity to just vote a new government into office in a mere 4 months.
It would seem to me as though nothing would make the management of DHL and Amazon happier than to see a ramp's solidarity splintering, especially this close to Q4.
Just my two cents. I hope that the K4 pilots are able to decide on what course of action is best for them, and I hope that that course is to remain unified with your Brothers and Sisters at 1224.
08-03-2017, 08:58 PM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Position: Old and Unemployed
Posts: 107
Originally Posted by Bockrain
Why are you against majority rule?
You are too small a group to justify your own local. Look what happened to ABX. They had their own local (1224) when they were AE. With the DHL downsizing, they were forced to consolidate with the other smaller IBT airlines.
You are too small a group to justify your own local. Look what happened to ABX. They had their own local (1224) when they were AE. With the DHL downsizing, they were forced to consolidate with the other smaller IBT airlines.
And, the comparison with ABX is flawed. K4 is not dependent on DHL's whims to keep afloat. They are a fair sized part of our business, but hardly the majority. DHL could kick us to the curb tomorrow and we would still be hiring pilots.
300 pilots is not too small of a force to support its own local. And, we are well on our way to the 500 mark. Kalitta v1.0 had about 500 when we were in our own captive local. It was never unable to meet the needs of the membership and was actually able to provide self supported welfare benefits that helped a number of our brothers and sisters who had devastating health or family issues.
08-03-2017, 10:29 PM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,236
Originally Posted by fr8ghtdawg
I don't know where you got your facts but it takes year 9 before a UPS FO makes more then a Kalitta Captain. By year 3 of the new contract, No UPS FO pay surpasses Kalitta Captain pay.
1. A Captain at Kalitta gets $10,000 a year in retirement and their Captains have to donate 10% to see that. A UPS FO on year two gets 12% directly contributed (unlimited) AND $4,000 a year towards a pension. In retirement that Pension would have to be $40,000 producing at 10% in a 401K (probably not gonna do 10%)... That's probably a $60,000 (actually probably more...) difference just in retirement.
2. 64 hour guarantee vs 75 hours with an extra pay period. So 768 hours guaranteed vs 975. In guaranteed money that means $192,000 in guarantee vs $166,725 for UPS. So plus $25,000 for Kalitta. I won't get in to breaking guarantee because I don't know enough about the rules but I do know that UPS pilots regularly break it. Kalitta gets no rig so I'm sure that there are slow months where they don't. The months later in the year I'm sure Kalitta breaks by a larger number though.
3. Days on? UPS is less. So let's say they work a day a period (which probably is still less days a month on than Kalitta pilots owe) on extra time on average... 13 days times 6 hours of rig times 1.5 for over time pay... $20,000... Then add an extra 12% unlimited retirement to the 401K... $2,400....
4. Soft work rules? UPS gets paid if their schedules are touched at all. If you're moved to the Observer's seat for OE that's 2 hours of pay a day. Let's say that's worth 20 (I bet that ends up being more years like this) hours a year.... $4,000 just on that one work rule. More than 4 hours late? Extension pay... etc...
5. No rig at Kalitta and unpaid 24 in 7s.....
The $250 an hour at Kalitta is just a rate. It's very difficult to see the rate due to the difference in work rules. All of this and Kalitta is still ahead of anyone else in ACMI. It just makes more sense to be in the right seat at UPS and I don't care if you're 55.... If you're younger than 50 you'll see Captain before you retire where you'll be making $150,000 (at least...) more a year than Kalitta Captain all while working less days. Therefore, I'll vote no on anything that doesn't at least compete with what's out there and Kalitta's contract simply isn't competitive with anything. In the meantime I'll fight like Hades to get to an Industry Standard Airline... In conclusion...
KNOW WHAT YOU'RE WORTH!!!
08-03-2017, 10:43 PM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: 747
Posts: 1,290
Originally Posted by goldfinger
Today,K4 pilots received signature cards authorizing the decertification of 1224 as our bargaining representation. HOORAY !!! Its about time we moved toward controlling our own destiny and rid ourselves of the Atlas dominated 1224 run by people who do not have our interests as first priority. Dominated by those who would (and tried to) ruthlessly sell us out and use us as a bargaining chip to benefit another separate pilot group. Its way past time that we freed ourselves from this sort of demagoguery and usury. Its way past time the K4 pilots negotiated and bargained for us and by us and refuse to allow our futures to be exploited and determined with only the benefit of another pilot group in mind.
I spent 14 years as an ALPA pilot at DHL Airways (aka) Astar. While being represented by ALPA, we lost a scope suit, a bid for 767's, AND all of us lost our friggin jobs !!!
While I contend that a union is only as strong as it's pilot group, if the national organization has other, more important (read lucrative) members, your airline will end up at the bottom of the stack.
Now, you won't be "competing" with DW and Atlas, you'll be "competing" with Delta Captain, Tim Canoll, and Delta, United, and FedEx for money and attention.
With 1224 you have all of the major ACMI carriers working with - not against - each other. They coordinate strategies and communications. They have a unified front when facing DHL and Amazon. And they have most of the unionized truckers in the U.S. on their side.
That's some pretty stupid logic thinking that ALPA would be better for K4.
8
08-04-2017, 02:44 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,339
No dog in this fight but I have a quick question - is switching from Teamsters to ALPA your only option? Two inferior choices in my view. (used to belong to both, wasn't impressed with either one)
What about starting an independent in-house union?
Many moons ago ups pilots were being derided for dumping Teamsters for their own in-house union. In hindsight, the creation of IPA turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to line pilots at brown.
Wish you all the best..
..and sorry for butting in.
What about starting an independent in-house union?
Many moons ago ups pilots were being derided for dumping Teamsters for their own in-house union. In hindsight, the creation of IPA turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to line pilots at brown.
Wish you all the best..
..and sorry for butting in.
08-04-2017, 04:46 AM
#59
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: 747-8 FO
Posts: 68
Originally Posted by Globemaster2827
Look at the numbers...
1. A Captain at Kalitta gets $10,000 a year in retirement and their Captains have to donate 10% to see that. A UPS FO on year two gets 12% directly contributed (unlimited) AND $4,000 a year towards a pension. In retirement that Pension would have to be $40,000 producing at 10% in a 401K (probably not gonna do 10%)... That's probably a $60,000 (actually probably more...) difference just in retirement.
2. 64 hour guarantee vs 75 hours with an extra pay period. So 768 hours guaranteed vs 975. In guaranteed money that means $192,000 in guarantee vs $166,725 for UPS. So plus $25,000 for Kalitta. I won't get in to breaking guarantee because I don't know enough about the rules but I do know that UPS pilots regularly break it. Kalitta gets no rig so I'm sure that there are slow months where they don't. The months later in the year I'm sure Kalitta breaks by a larger number though.
Kalitta receive's reserve credits of 4.0 hrs on reserve days paid in addition to our flight pay. Our pilots average approximately 78=82 hrs of pay due to this. Rig is paid for time away (Not in addition)
3. Days on? UPS is less. So let's say they work a day a period (which probably is still less days a month on than Kalitta pilots owe) on extra time on average... 13 days times 6 hours of rig times 1.5 for over time pay... $20,000... Then add an extra 12% unlimited retirement to the 401K... $2,400....
You said pay, Not retirement. Once again, Rig is not a guaranteed amount. It is dependent on days on. UPS international guys in comparison are not usually making additional on rig, They simply don't work as much as Atlas or Kalitta where they are keep guys out for 16 or in your case 19. If UPS crew members choose to fly international and fly their schedules, most do not make additional due to rig unless they want to be out.
4. Soft work rules? UPS gets paid if their schedules are touched at all. If you're moved to the Observer's seat for OE that's 2 hours of pay a day. Let's say that's worth 20 (I bet that ends up being more years like this) hours a year.... $4,000 just on that one work rule. More than 4 hours late? Extension pay... etc...
Not guaranteed! great perk! Kalitta gets paid additional for reserve status unlike Atlas which only gets their walmart rig if they are out of base! Also not guaranteed (like our additional pay for reserve status,)
5. No rig at Kalitta and unpaid 24 in 7s.....
Unpaid 1/7s are not unpaid, they just don't generate additional pay credit like our reserve credits. The contract allows 3 1/7's that don't qualify for additional credit, the rest are paid 4.0 in addition to our flight pay. Most guys average 78-82 hrs of flight pay+soft credits. Hopefully we get a rig in the next one. It would be great to have the soft credits we have now plus the rig for the slow months. Which we haven't seen in years!
The $250 an hour at Kalitta is just a rate. It's very difficult to see the rate due to the difference in work rules. All of this and Kalitta is still ahead of anyone else in ACMI. It just makes more sense to be in the right seat at UPS and I don't care if you're 55.... If you're younger than 50 you'll see Captain before you retire where you'll be making $150,000 (at least...) more a year than Kalitta Captain all while working less days. Therefore, I'll vote no on anything that doesn't at least compete with what's out there and Kalitta's contract simply isn't competitive with anything. In the meantime I'll fight like Hades to get to an Industry Standard Airline... In conclusion...
Nobody argued for a second that Kalitta was a better place to be then UPS. But your"facts" are kind of like MSNBC reporting.
KNOW WHAT YOU'RE WORTH!!!
1. A Captain at Kalitta gets $10,000 a year in retirement and their Captains have to donate 10% to see that. A UPS FO on year two gets 12% directly contributed (unlimited) AND $4,000 a year towards a pension. In retirement that Pension would have to be $40,000 producing at 10% in a 401K (probably not gonna do 10%)... That's probably a $60,000 (actually probably more...) difference just in retirement.
2. 64 hour guarantee vs 75 hours with an extra pay period. So 768 hours guaranteed vs 975. In guaranteed money that means $192,000 in guarantee vs $166,725 for UPS. So plus $25,000 for Kalitta. I won't get in to breaking guarantee because I don't know enough about the rules but I do know that UPS pilots regularly break it. Kalitta gets no rig so I'm sure that there are slow months where they don't. The months later in the year I'm sure Kalitta breaks by a larger number though.
Kalitta receive's reserve credits of 4.0 hrs on reserve days paid in addition to our flight pay. Our pilots average approximately 78=82 hrs of pay due to this. Rig is paid for time away (Not in addition)
3. Days on? UPS is less. So let's say they work a day a period (which probably is still less days a month on than Kalitta pilots owe) on extra time on average... 13 days times 6 hours of rig times 1.5 for over time pay... $20,000... Then add an extra 12% unlimited retirement to the 401K... $2,400....
You said pay, Not retirement. Once again, Rig is not a guaranteed amount. It is dependent on days on. UPS international guys in comparison are not usually making additional on rig, They simply don't work as much as Atlas or Kalitta where they are keep guys out for 16 or in your case 19. If UPS crew members choose to fly international and fly their schedules, most do not make additional due to rig unless they want to be out.
4. Soft work rules? UPS gets paid if their schedules are touched at all. If you're moved to the Observer's seat for OE that's 2 hours of pay a day. Let's say that's worth 20 (I bet that ends up being more years like this) hours a year.... $4,000 just on that one work rule. More than 4 hours late? Extension pay... etc...
Not guaranteed! great perk! Kalitta gets paid additional for reserve status unlike Atlas which only gets their walmart rig if they are out of base! Also not guaranteed (like our additional pay for reserve status,)
5. No rig at Kalitta and unpaid 24 in 7s.....
Unpaid 1/7s are not unpaid, they just don't generate additional pay credit like our reserve credits. The contract allows 3 1/7's that don't qualify for additional credit, the rest are paid 4.0 in addition to our flight pay. Most guys average 78-82 hrs of flight pay+soft credits. Hopefully we get a rig in the next one. It would be great to have the soft credits we have now plus the rig for the slow months. Which we haven't seen in years!
The $250 an hour at Kalitta is just a rate. It's very difficult to see the rate due to the difference in work rules. All of this and Kalitta is still ahead of anyone else in ACMI. It just makes more sense to be in the right seat at UPS and I don't care if you're 55.... If you're younger than 50 you'll see Captain before you retire where you'll be making $150,000 (at least...) more a year than Kalitta Captain all while working less days. Therefore, I'll vote no on anything that doesn't at least compete with what's out there and Kalitta's contract simply isn't competitive with anything. In the meantime I'll fight like Hades to get to an Industry Standard Airline... In conclusion...
Nobody argued for a second that Kalitta was a better place to be then UPS. But your"facts" are kind of like MSNBC reporting.
KNOW WHAT YOU'RE WORTH!!!
08-04-2017, 06:28 AM
#60
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by ocskyguy
I am not against majority rule. So long as the majority are fair and equitable. Lest my high school history class memory is flawed, we were hardly the majority when we broke free of British rule in favor of a more equitable representation scheme.
And, the comparison with ABX is flawed. K4 is not dependent on DHL's whims to keep afloat. They are a fair sized part of our business, but hardly the majority. DHL could kick us to the curb tomorrow and we would still be hiring pilots.
300 pilots is not too small of a force to support its own local. And, we are well on our way to the 500 mark. Kalitta v1.0 had about 500 when we were in our own captive local. It was never unable to meet the needs of the membership and was actually able to provide self supported welfare benefits that helped a number of our brothers and sisters who had devastating health or family issues.
And, the comparison with ABX is flawed. K4 is not dependent on DHL's whims to keep afloat. They are a fair sized part of our business, but hardly the majority. DHL could kick us to the curb tomorrow and we would still be hiring pilots.
300 pilots is not too small of a force to support its own local. And, we are well on our way to the 500 mark. Kalitta v1.0 had about 500 when we were in our own captive local. It was never unable to meet the needs of the membership and was actually able to provide self supported welfare benefits that helped a number of our brothers and sisters who had devastating health or family issues.
K4 is getting deeper and deeper in bed with DHL and soon with Amazon. Your ad-hoc 747 charters will soon be just a side business, as Connie's main focus will be serving DHL and AMZ.
What you should do is stay in 1224 and work on a 1224 standard contract while trying to woo ATI to the Teamsters. If unsuccessful with ATI, 1224 should do everything in it's power to drive ATI off the CVG ramp.
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