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Old 02-13-2019, 08:55 PM   #11  
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Thanks for all the replies.

So normally at my airline it would be 2 CAs and 2 FOs, but we currently have a shortage of FOs.
The CAs get right seat qualied at initial, but one of the CAs said he had recently done his PC and they did not do anything in the right seat. So we are thinking he was now not qualified to take off or landing in the right seat.

FYI- 121.509 says the duty limit for 4 pilot crews is 20 hrs, so that is not a contract thing.
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:16 PM   #12  
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Scheduled Duty 20 hrs, may be extendable by +2 hrs if specific flight delays are met / crew concurrence. Fine by me.

Still way better than normal mil “augmented” crews for a grand total of 3 crew members for 24 hrs, extendable by +2 hrs if criteria is met (waiver, etc.) Definitely don’t miss that... Geesh. B2 or U2 drivers had it worse I hear... probably others as well.
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:34 PM   #13  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainDooley View Post
FYI- 121.509 says the duty limit for 4 pilot crews is 20 hrs, so that is not a contract thing.
If you read 121.513 it says “in place of the flight time limitations in 121.503 through 121.511 a certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may elect to comply with the flight time limitations of 121.515 and 121.521 through 121.525 for operations conducted (international blah blah)”

Then go to 121.523 Crew of three or more pilots and additional airmen AS REQUIRED
(C)”no certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may schedule any flight crew member to be on continuous duty for more than 30 hours.”

That as required part covers the fact that very few people fly with FEs or Navs anymore. It’s just a crew of 3 or more pilots.
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:35 PM   #14  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainDooley View Post
Thanks for all the replies.

So normally at my airline it would be 2 CAs and 2 FOs, but we currently have a shortage of FOs.
The CAs get right seat qualied at initial, but one of the CAs said he had recently done his PC and they did not do anything in the right seat. So we are thinking he was now not qualified to take off or landing in the right seat.

FYI- 121.509 says the duty limit for 4 pilot crews is 20 hrs, so that is not a contract thing.
Captains can also complete their right seat currency during their 6 month PT vs. their PC.

Not all “heavy crews” fly under 121.509. The company may choose to operate under the similar Supplemental reg of 121.523 with a 30 hour duty limit (K4), under Flag rules 121.485, or under 117 which is an entirely different animal.
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Old 02-14-2019, 07:27 AM   #15  
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Not all ACMI type Airlines operate solely under Supplemental CFRs. Atlas and Southern (probably others) have Domestic, Supplemental, and Flag OpSpecs.
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:08 AM   #16  
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If you read 121.513 it says “in place of the flight time limitations in 121.503 through 121.511 a certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may elect to comply with the flight time limitations of 121.515 and 121.521 through 121.525 for operations conducted (international blah blah)”

Then go to 121.523 Crew of three or more pilots and additional airmen AS REQUIRED
(C)”no certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may schedule any flight crew member to be on continuous duty for more than 30 hours.”

That as required part covers the fact that very few people fly with FEs or Navs anymore. It’s just a crew of 3 or more pilots.
The FAA has a legal interpretation letter that says an Airline must state which set of rules they choose to operate under when using 121.513.
My airline has it in the FOM that we use 121.503-511,
so in our case 20 hrs is the max duty for a heavy crew and can not be extended.

I talked with one of our CAs, he said he just did recurrent sim and they did not give him a right seat checkout. So, I would say he is not current to fly a heavy crew flight , unless he is the PIC.
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:15 AM   #17  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainDooley View Post
The FAA has a legal interpretation letter that says an Airline must state which set of rules they choose to operate under when using 121.513.
My airline has it in the FOM that we use 121.503-511,
so in our case 20 hrs is the max duty for a heavy crew and can not be extended.

I talked with one of our CAs, he said he just did recurrent sim and they did not give him a right seat checkout. So, I would say he is not current to fly a heavy crew flight , unless he is the PIC.
How do you figure? There are two relief pilots on a heavy crew flight. Even IF he didn’t satisfy whatever right seat qual may or may not be in the FOTM, whose to say he has to relieve the FO? Why can’t he relieve the Captain and let the other guy relieve the FO? Are you up there playing musical chairs?
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Old 02-14-2019, 03:54 PM   #18  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainDooley View Post
The FAA has a legal interpretation letter that says an Airline must state which set of rules they choose to operate under when using 121.513.
My airline has it in the FOM that we use 121.503-511,
so in our case 20 hrs is the max duty for a heavy crew and can not be extended.
I don’t doubt that. It would be hideous if the company could change which one you fall under on a whim. I was just showing that 24 really is a CBA limitation at some companies, and not a FAR.
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Old 02-17-2019, 02:16 PM   #19  
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How do you figure? There are two relief pilots on a heavy crew flight. Even IF he didn’t satisfy whatever right seat qual may or may not be in the FOTM, whose to say he has to relieve the FO? Why can’t he relieve the Captain and let the other guy relieve the FO? Are you up there playing musical chairs?
You may be able to do that, but if it says a CA must be current and qualified in right seat, then both have to be right seat qualied. You cant just say well one of them is so that is ok. Anyone on the flight deck has to meet the currency requirements of the position they are flying. If you are a relief pilot, then you need to be able to relieve either pilot.
if one guy can only relieve the CA, then why not just have one crew fly the plane down and the other fly back.

Why would they even have CA do a right seat check out in initial if they didn't need it to meet qualifications? So if they do it in initial, and then dont do it in recurrent, i would say they are no longer current in the right seat.
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Old 02-17-2019, 04:32 PM   #20  
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You may be able to do that, but if it says a CA must be current and qualified in right seat, then both have to be right seat qualied. You cant just say well one of them is so that is ok. Anyone on the flight deck has to meet the currency requirements of the position they are flying. If you are a relief pilot, then you need to be able to relieve either pilot.
if one guy can only relieve the CA, then why not just have one crew fly the plane down and the other fly back.

Why would they even have CA do a right seat check out in initial if they didn't need it to meet qualifications? So if they do it in initial, and then dont do it in recurrent, i would say they are no longer current in the right seat.
As the lone IRO on an augmented flight, yes you absolutely must be qualified to relieve both pilots. As one of two IRO's on a heavy crew flight (which is what he's talking about), I'd disagree. You only need to be able to relieve who you're going to relieve. It's just about making sure nobody is at the controls for more than 8. So just pick a seat and try not to touch any dusty switches.

If you actually read the FOTM, the right seat qual is satisfied just by flying seat support for another PIC in the sim. So it's entirely dependent on the sim pairing whether or not you actually have to land from the right seat. This individual was probably paired with an FO on his initial type course, as many folks here were, but since there are a lot more CA's than FO's right now, he probably wasn't for recurrent. Hence the program being different. It's kinda funny that everyone is getting all hyped up over a CA flying right seat, but nobody mentions that there is no specific left seat qual in our FOTM, yet you have FO IRO's flying left seat. Now, you take your type from the left seat, but it isn't part of the recurrent program. I must say, it is pretty tricky running the radios with my other hand. Thrills, chills, and narrow escapes, I tell ya.

As to why they don't deadhead a crew down and have them operate back, you might want to check part 121 Supplemental Flight and Duty rules and the CBA. They're vastly different for a Heavy Crew vs two separate two man crews. They tried that. Doesn't work. It provides no benefit (duty-wise) over a two-man crew.
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