Amazon Single Carrier?
11-15-2020, 10:16 PM
#21
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Posts: 1,339
Originally Posted by senecacaptain
...
Before UPS developed its own in-house airline, it was all contract or ACMI style carriers. I believe all of them were folded into the original UPS Airlines.
...
Before UPS developed its own in-house airline, it was all contract or ACMI style carriers. I believe all of them were folded into the original UPS Airlines.
...
Initially they hired many Orion Air drivers but eventually most of ups contractor-pilots were given preferential interviews.
____
Condensed UPS Airlines history from Wikipedia.
“...In contrast to chief competitor Federal Express (which owned its own aircraft), in the early 1980s, air operations of UPS were undertaken by several contractors, including Evergreen International Airlines, Interstate Airlines, Ryan Air and Orion Air. Through its contractors, UPS flew its packages using a fleet of commercial aircraft converted to freighters, including Boeing 727-100s, 727-200s, Douglas DC-8s, and Boeing 747-100s.
...
In 1986, in an effort to obtain service rights to Japan, UPS entered into a joint venture with DHL, named International Parcel Express (IPX).
IPX was rejected for use in Japan, leading UPS to purchase the DHL share of the joint venture in 1987.
At the end of 1987, UPS ended the use of contract flights by Evergreen, Ryan, and Orion. Using the flight certificate intended for the IPX joint venture, the renamed UPS Airlines commenced operations in January 1988, adopting many flight crews from Orion Air...”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPS_Airlines
11-18-2020, 01:57 AM
#22
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Posts: 140
This business model has been invoked for decades, you are either young or new to freight. The objections usually come from pilots that want THEIR airline to be consumed as the sole carrier by the contracting entity. Most cargo pilots recognize it for what it is ....steady business for their airline.
11-18-2020, 08:27 AM
#24
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Joined APC: Nov 2019
Posts: 1,256
Originally Posted by whalesurfer
Not really, only IPX pilots were “folded into” UPS Airlines. (which is why UPS airline code is still 5X).
Initially they hired many Orion Air drivers but eventually most of ups contractor-pilots were given preferential interviews.
____
Condensed UPS Airlines history from Wikipedia.
“...In contrast to chief competitor Federal Express (which owned its own aircraft), in the early 1980s, air operations of UPS were undertaken by several contractors, including Evergreen International Airlines, Interstate Airlines, Ryan Air and Orion Air. Through its contractors, UPS flew its packages using a fleet of commercial aircraft converted to freighters, including Boeing 727-100s, 727-200s, Douglas DC-8s, and Boeing 747-100s.
...
In 1986, in an effort to obtain service rights to Japan, UPS entered into a joint venture with DHL, named International Parcel Express (IPX).
IPX was rejected for use in Japan, leading UPS to purchase the DHL share of the joint venture in 1987.
At the end of 1987, UPS ended the use of contract flights by Evergreen, Ryan, and Orion. Using the flight certificate intended for the IPX joint venture, the renamed UPS Airlines commenced operations in January 1988, adopting many flight crews from Orion Air...”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPS_Airlines
Initially they hired many Orion Air drivers but eventually most of ups contractor-pilots were given preferential interviews.
____
Condensed UPS Airlines history from Wikipedia.
“...In contrast to chief competitor Federal Express (which owned its own aircraft), in the early 1980s, air operations of UPS were undertaken by several contractors, including Evergreen International Airlines, Interstate Airlines, Ryan Air and Orion Air. Through its contractors, UPS flew its packages using a fleet of commercial aircraft converted to freighters, including Boeing 727-100s, 727-200s, Douglas DC-8s, and Boeing 747-100s.
...
In 1986, in an effort to obtain service rights to Japan, UPS entered into a joint venture with DHL, named International Parcel Express (IPX).
IPX was rejected for use in Japan, leading UPS to purchase the DHL share of the joint venture in 1987.
At the end of 1987, UPS ended the use of contract flights by Evergreen, Ryan, and Orion. Using the flight certificate intended for the IPX joint venture, the renamed UPS Airlines commenced operations in January 1988, adopting many flight crews from Orion Air...”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPS_Airlines
11-18-2020, 02:13 PM
#25
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,809
Originally Posted by Hedley
FedEx and UPS have unions that would prevent those things. Look at the auto industry. GM owns many plants. Some use workers in Michigan, some in Texas, and some in Mexico. Owning/controlling an asset doesn’t restrict you from farming out the use of those assets. Legacy passenger airlines own many of the regional jets out there, they maintain operational control over their use, yet they farm other companies out to fly them.
11-18-2020, 02:21 PM
#26
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,809
Originally Posted by Varsity
They aren't just a logistics company when they are deciding when a flight goes and own the airplane.
They have operation control, regardless if they tell you so or not.
If they didn't, these companies like ABX and Atlas could fly the amazon jets for other carriers like Fedex, but they can't.
They have operation control, regardless if they tell you so or not.
If they didn't, these companies like ABX and Atlas could fly the amazon jets for other carriers like Fedex, but they can't.
11-18-2020, 02:27 PM
#27
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Posts: 1,809
Originally Posted by mart83648
Why is Amazon allowed to fly multiple airlines at a time? Isn't this a form of anti-competitive practice (Sherman Anti-trust)? Seems like an uneven playing field when Amazon can "whipsaw" labor negotiations to lower cost. Amazon being the most wealthy company in the world (in all of world history) has an unfair advantage, and its monopoly powers need to be dealt with--before it's too late!
So far they have patterned themselves exactly like DHL.
11-18-2020, 07:00 PM
#28
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,261
Originally Posted by mart83648
What is this? Do you have anything more to add to the convo?
As to why they can "fly multiple airlines", it's because they contract it out. Pax airlines do the same... some companies even own multipe airlines/certificates and whipsaw them against each other.
It's actually less anti-competitive that amazon contracts out their flying. If they actually owned their own airline that would be more likely to be considered too vertical.
Anti-trust philosophy doesn't really protect labor, it protects the consumers by ensuring they have choices and therefore market forces can keep prices under control. Labor actually would tend to benefit from monopolistic practices... when the company has the lock on the market, labor can demand anything and the company just passes it on to the consumer. Highly regulated monopolies had some of the happiest workers (think ma bell, and pre-deregulation legacy airlines)
11-19-2020, 06:17 AM
#29
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Posts: 33
Originally Posted by rickair7777
If you followed Bezos/Amazon at all you'd understand.
As to why they can "fly multiple airlines", it's because they contract it out. Pax airlines do the same... some companies even own multipe airlines/certificates and whipsaw them against each other.
It's actually less anti-competitive that amazon contracts out their flying. If they actually owned their own airline that would be more likely to be considered too vertical.
Anti-trust philosophy doesn't really protect labor, it protects the consumers by ensuring they have choices and therefore market forces can keep prices under control. Labor actually would tend to benefit from monopolistic practices... when the company has the lock on the market, labor can demand anything and the company just passes it on to the consumer. Highly regulated monopolies had some of the happiest workers (think ma bell, and pre-deregulation legacy airlines)
As to why they can "fly multiple airlines", it's because they contract it out. Pax airlines do the same... some companies even own multipe airlines/certificates and whipsaw them against each other.
It's actually less anti-competitive that amazon contracts out their flying. If they actually owned their own airline that would be more likely to be considered too vertical.
Anti-trust philosophy doesn't really protect labor, it protects the consumers by ensuring they have choices and therefore market forces can keep prices under control. Labor actually would tend to benefit from monopolistic practices... when the company has the lock on the market, labor can demand anything and the company just passes it on to the consumer. Highly regulated monopolies had some of the happiest workers (think ma bell, and pre-deregulation legacy airlines)
So why doesn't UPS and Fedex outsource their flying to the lowest bidder? Union scope contracts? I'm not convinced it's as simple as that?
11-19-2020, 08:39 AM
#30
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
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Posts: 39,261
Originally Posted by mart83648
I do follow Amazon and Bezos. I just don't understand "Lmaorofl" as a form of argument?
Originally Posted by mart83648
So why doesn't UPS and Fedex outsource their flying to the lowest bidder? Union scope contracts? I'm not convinced it's as simple as that?
Actually FDX does outsource, the small-plane feeders. Just like the pax airlines.
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