PAX2Cargo

Vito, Vito,

Chill Brother,

I just read your post dated 11-20. And I have to speak some words on that, about putting life on line for $40K a year, cold nights in the desert, and etc.

But lets look at a point many airmen forget real quick when they are cruising at 450 kts. Your going to the desert again, well you signed up for it. But in reality the, triple A, SAMS, I will bet a large amount of $$ you will not see any of this on deployment. And I am guessing you did not see much of it the last time either. Did see it in 90-91, but the Iraq army was just shooting in the blind half of the time. As for small arms fire, possablilty, but you will have to get low and slow like a chopper, or an A-10. And by the sounds of your post you fly F-18s or F14s. Back to the $40K for those cold night in the desert and loosing all that money at UPS. As a former gound pounder (a.k.a. RifleMan that is), to us you will leave you air condition tent to go out to the plane which has been prepared for you to fly a mission in the 30,000 feet and up range for a few hours doing turns in the sky and chatting over the radio about how bad the food is. Might get called in for a airstrike or two, which you can lock on from a few miles away, drop and forget, peel off back to the night sky and get a bomb damage report in the morning while drinking coffee from a real coffee pot as you walk back to your tent were the AC might be too cold and you need to adjust for your sleep time. As one fighter jock told me, "it is all a video game. We may drop a few bombs on a target, but never really see who we kill. Just a ghostly figure from the FLIR. You guys on the ground have alot more to worry about. No radar on your body to tell you a shot has been fired at you and from where. Or some guy is around the corner with his rifle head high waiting for you to walk around it. Dirty all the time, no real sleep, no real meal. And you guys get paid SH*T! Why would you do it?" I responed with one word "PRIDE". He said, "you're a better man then me" My point is for what you do and the amount you get paid is worth millions to a man who will always have to look up in the sky at you. Becuase unless you have been on the ground, dealing with that kind of stuff, complaining like you did on the post dated 11-20 is a slap in the face to about 2,200 people who gave there lives for pride, not money.

Pat Tillman is a hero. The Marines who have thrown themselves on hand greandes to save there fellow Marines lives(2 in this war), they are heros. To the ground pounder who has to do what they do for 12 months in Iraq are heros.

You join for PRIDE, not money.

SkyHigh

Dear Deuce,

It seems like you UPS guys are living in some kind of reality bubble. Sure it can take a little while to train a pilot, but these days it takes 12 months to go from zero to hero. It is more difficult to become licenced to become a plumber than to fly planes commercially. It might only take 2 days to train a truck driver but it takes a few years of part time and box throwing to get there. I wouldn't be so smug if I were you.

SkyHigh

Soyathink

Didn't Fred threaten to replace pilots at the last contract? I seem to remember him stating that he would replce the pilots if they walked but things got settled.

MAPLeader

There are numerous.............NUMBEROUS examples of guys with no qualifications hired into management. With no qualifications to then become check airmen. There can only be 10% of you doing an actual job, so that must be the 10% doing a good job! The other 90% are just doing busybody work...waiting for the flag to be raised so you can go out and do your real job.

If you are so experienced in the airline industry, then you must know that the ratio of pilot managers (not mangers), to line pilots is completely out of proportion at UPS. To keep the same ratio as other airlines, with 2700 pilots, UPS would have under 10. Under 10 pilot managers.

So that means the other 200 managers were hired as strike breakers. That's not name calling, that's fact. It's the subject of, "An airline within an airline.", that is talked about so much nowadays. And you must have drank all the brown koolaid not to realize it. Someone as yourself, with so much airline experience. Just look at the concrete facts of these ratios for your proof. Obscene.

The attitude problem comes in when I have some NewHire nob pilot manager, who busted his checkride twice (I'm citing a specific example, FYI), in the same plane that he is now magically a captain and check airman. Gee, the magic of crossing over to, "the dark side". Sorry, that bothers me. And the guy hangs up on pickayune/stupid things in a debrief because he otherwise has nothing valuable to say and wants to justify his job.

This check airman, has no business being a check airman. Nor should this guy be in any way tasked with determining my future on a checkride. No two ways about it, it bothers me.

If the dire stories of previous airlines won't happen at UPS, it won't be because of the skills of all the little pilot managers running around at UPS. It will only be because we all know just what these little pilot managers will be doing in the event of a strike. Then, they will be doing exactly what they were hired for in such numbers to prevent history from repeating itself.

You cannot be so blind as to not see these truths, can you?

Vito

PaxtoCargo,

I see your point, and You have my undying respect, But You missed the point of my post. I could easily have goten an Iwo Jima veteran to downplay and ridicule your combat experiences in Iraq as childsplay!...We all serve, and while some see more action than others, I always believed the real test was when You know Your going into the "Hornets Nest" and You walk out and "Load Your rifle" "Run Checklists" "Fill in the blanks..... and do your job.
By the way don't try and diminish what I do in a jet vis a vis what you do/did on the ground. I know it takes big balls to walk into a building where the enemy is lurking...taking that first step into the building is the test of a warrior..we all know most guys would **** bricks in a situation like that...likewise, try flying in a 90 degree bank at 500 knots with another jet 4 feet away and your IP is telling you to tighten it up....Seen a few dudes fail to cross that threshold!! and that was in peacetime. Either way, I'm not tooting my own horn, I'm writing for all the others out there as well
Thanks for your service, Maybe one day I can be as tough as You when I grow up.

NoKoolAid

At FredEx, 95% of the training, IOE, line checks, and proficiency checks are done by line pilots who are trained for the task. Our managers are strictly "paper pushers". It takes at least 300 guys across all aircraft in our system to cover these areas. Same way at most other airlines -- pax or cargo.

UPS has a completely different organizational structure. Some IPA instructors are working the training center, but the management guys do the rest. That's the way it is -- probably never change. 98 years of doing things a certain way and that kind of shiatz happens. So there you have it, it takes a crap load of guys/gals to run the airline and keep the training and standards up to speed. At UPS, it's all done by management pilots, except for the support IPA guys.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but UPS wants to hire from within into the mgmt. ranks. If those positions are not filled, they look elsewhere. If you want to make changes, get off your horse and man up to do the job. Otherwise, your just part of the problem, not the solution.

There are plenty of guys who have paid their dues at FedEx and UPS that wouldn't be worth a bag of shiatz as an instructor or LCA. Strictly time on the line is not the only measure of a qualified pilot. Are you saying a guy who flew for 20 years in the military or as a LCA/Standards pilot at AA or UAL can't determine whether your landing sux or not? Give me a break! Get over yourself. You either show proficiency at your job or you don't. This prima donna attitude don't fly with me.

Hey, I'm just as ****ed off about our negotiations as you are. But, I think it's a mistake to group management pilots into the category of hate you may feel toward the Atlanta people (attorneys) at the negotiating table.

But it's always makes people feel better to vent on a discussion group and sign on to conspiracy theories when they get frustrated or "dis-enfranchised".

I know I feel better now.

Bring it.

NKA

Trash Hauler 1

"If you want to make changes, get off your horse and man up to do the job. Otherwise, your just part of the pr"oblem, not the solution."
Based upon that statement, i find it hard to believe you're an IPA guy. The above sentiment might work in an airline where the managers can go back and forth from the line. But at ups, once you've gone to the manglement side, you're done. Most of the managers have zero cred with the line swine and the manglers don't respect us either. We've had self-serving jack-asses here (hi Houston!) go to mgt with the express purpose of "changing things for the better" only to find themselves as a flock of one. HONK HONK. I personally would love to have the option to do some mangling for a while, then go back to the line. That will never happen, though. Just the way it is, here in the land of Brown

NoKoolAid

You're right, not an IPA guy and never said I was.

I live in the land of FredEx. However, I stand by all the statements I made with one addition -- the us vs. them deal with IPA and management is pretty sad at Brown. Glad I don't have to deal with it over here at the plantation in Memphrica.

We don't particularly like our managers here either, but most of us realize they are not the source of our problems -- the CEO and his biatches are where our true problems lie. Pretty sure the same thing applies there.

Just because "management" is in the title doesn't mean these guys aren't doing the best job they can. In any group, you have bottom feeders and jerks. For the most part, the managers here are actually good guys. Just food for thought.

NKA

Trash Hauler 1

I agree the "us vs them" attitude is unfortunate. Its just the way it is here. Some of our managers are decent, competent guys. That said, there is precious little they can do to effect change here at Big Brown. They are reduced to pleading for the United Way campaign and making sure the catering doesn't exceed budget. Sad, but true. Good luck at FredEx!

HSLD

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