UPS: The F word
09-29-2008, 05:44 PM
#21
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Joined APC: May 2006
Position: DC-8 756/767
Posts: 1,143
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
<BG> They do this all the time. UPS is always tweaking. Read the changes in the bid packets. Glad they do! After the 97 strike was settled, CAE closed up, it looked like RFD before that. No one was furloughed. Part of the reason everything doesn't come through SDF in the first place is volume limits on NDA. Even Worldport won't provide all the necessary business requirements.
The other reason is contingency. Think the SDF snow/ice storms. They have come to rely on the ability to move sort capability around. Fedex does same. (Where UPS got the idea <g>)
The other reason is contingency. Think the SDF snow/ice storms. They have come to rely on the ability to move sort capability around. Fedex does same. (Where UPS got the idea <g>)
I see what you are saying but like I said, if volume continues to drop(and I mean a huge drop), they may close another sort facility and put that volume in SDF. Also, I have been through many storms in SDF and have learned that contingency will NOT move the sort to other hubs. I think you would agree that there have been several storms this year alone that, if they were going to divert volume and aircraft, it would have been done. Also, PHL, RFD could not handle a fraction of what flows through SDF if SDF were to close.
09-29-2008, 05:45 PM
#22
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Posts: 245
Originally Posted by Biggs
No one knows, but DHL is the key. If its a nogo, then its easy to get rid of the bottom FE's that were just put there. Now that about 50 and take the bottom Md and 74 guys and thats another 50 to 100 depending how many you want out, and not much training will need to be done. Last week man power planning said we were very fat when I called and asked. When I ask for a number they clammed up. I've heard 300 when the MD moves back to domestic, and its complete, barring DHL. so lets assume OT is 100 guys and there is a ban and you can get rid of 200 over a year and as the year goes on make changes as need. I think there will be one and the union is totaly unprepared since they have never gone down this road before. yes theirs been threats, but we never had what is happening now in the world economy. If you are in the bottom 150, I would be preparing for a spring vacation and save your money and start putting together a plan that you can execute quickly. Our problem is most companies overseas require you to resign your senoirty number and no way would I do that. The rest of the companies are contract companies and UPS does not have a by pass clause that allows you to bypass recall to finish your contract, and they will know that, and could hurt your chances of being hired. The union will not come out and say we are fat or thin, because they know we are fat and dont want to create panic and anger, since they just pushed to get the over 60 crowd back in the up front seats to a tune of about 100 guys. They will wait till it happens and blame UPS and tell those folks they never saw it coming. Be prepared and count on no one but yourself to survive. DHL is the key, watch is close, and read Bob Millers email he sent out two weeks ago.
Should be very interesting around here after peak. I wonder if they will offer some sort of "leave of absence" scheme to offset the number of involuntary furloughs, if it were to go down that road.
09-29-2008, 06:05 PM
#23
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Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: MD-11 CA
Posts: 174
I think there is a good chance that UPS will furlough to reduce costs. I also think that if the DHL is signed, it may very well prevent furloughs. But if the deal doesn't happen expect 100-150 guys to hit the street.
I also think it is a good chance that they will furlough out of seniority order too just to save costs. They will start with the DC-8 FEs no matter the seniority, and then they will probably furlough the MIL leave guys next. All in order to save a few million.
I also think it is a good chance that they will furlough out of seniority order too just to save costs. They will start with the DC-8 FEs no matter the seniority, and then they will probably furlough the MIL leave guys next. All in order to save a few million.
09-29-2008, 06:58 PM
#25
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Position: MD-11 CA
Posts: 174
Originally Posted by SLPII
What's next with regards to the DHL contract?
IMO the deal probably won't happen because the politicians will kill it in one way or another.
09-29-2008, 07:00 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by FR8K9
Chairman of the US Senate Antitrust Subcommittee Herb Kohl says the planned deal between DHL and UPS “would be anti-competitive and in violation of (US) antitrust law.”
IMO the deal probably won't happen because the politicians will kill it in one way or another.
IMO the deal probably won't happen because the politicians will kill it in one way or another.
Last edited by SLPII; 09-29-2008 at 07:06 PM.
09-29-2008, 07:07 PM
#27
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The way I read it is that it will be blocked as soon as the deal is signed. Here is the Chairman's statement:
“This arrangement between DHL and UPS would appear to substantially harm competition in the overnight package delivery market, and thereby would likely hurt consumers and business reliant on these services,” Kohl said. “It is our judgment that antitrust law requires federal enforcement authorities to act to block DHL and UPS from entering into this deal that is contrary to antitrust law.”
The funniest (or tragic) part if this is that our politicians are so hell bent on killing a deal that benefits a dominant US company (UPS) under the guise of anti-trust, that they even actually considered having the taxpayers of Ohio subsidize DHL in order to keep the Wilmington hub open.
UPS pilots will be furloughed, but at least the minimum wage box throwing jobs in Ohio will be saved for another year or two until DHL pulls out of the USA completely.
“This arrangement between DHL and UPS would appear to substantially harm competition in the overnight package delivery market, and thereby would likely hurt consumers and business reliant on these services,” Kohl said. “It is our judgment that antitrust law requires federal enforcement authorities to act to block DHL and UPS from entering into this deal that is contrary to antitrust law.”
The funniest (or tragic) part if this is that our politicians are so hell bent on killing a deal that benefits a dominant US company (UPS) under the guise of anti-trust, that they even actually considered having the taxpayers of Ohio subsidize DHL in order to keep the Wilmington hub open.
UPS pilots will be furloughed, but at least the minimum wage box throwing jobs in Ohio will be saved for another year or two until DHL pulls out of the USA completely.
Last edited by FR8K9; 09-29-2008 at 07:13 PM.
09-29-2008, 07:12 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by FR8K9
The way I read it is that it will be blocked as soon as the deal is signed. Here is the Chairman's statement:
“This arrangement between DHL and UPS would appear to substantially harm competition in the overnight package delivery market, and thereby would likely hurt consumers and business reliant on these services,” Kohl said. “It is our judgment that antitrust law requires federal enforcement authorities to act to block DHL and UPS from entering into this deal that is contrary to antitrust law.”
The funniest (or tragic) part if this is that our politicians are so hell bent on killing a deal that benefits a dominant US company (UPS) under the guise of anti-trust, that they even actually considered having the taxpayers of Ohio subsidize DHL in order to keep the Wilmington hub open.
“This arrangement between DHL and UPS would appear to substantially harm competition in the overnight package delivery market, and thereby would likely hurt consumers and business reliant on these services,” Kohl said. “It is our judgment that antitrust law requires federal enforcement authorities to act to block DHL and UPS from entering into this deal that is contrary to antitrust law.”
The funniest (or tragic) part if this is that our politicians are so hell bent on killing a deal that benefits a dominant US company (UPS) under the guise of anti-trust, that they even actually considered having the taxpayers of Ohio subsidize DHL in order to keep the Wilmington hub open.
09-29-2008, 07:12 PM
#29
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: MD11 CPT
Posts: 1,077
Originally Posted by Biggs
No one knows, but DHL is the key. If its a nogo, then its easy to get rid of the bottom FE's that were just put there. Now that about 50 and take the bottom Md and 74 guys and thats another 50 to 100 depending how many you want out, and not much training will need to be done. Last week man power planning said we were very fat when I called and asked. When I ask for a number they clammed up. I've heard 300 when the MD moves back to domestic, and its complete, barring DHL. so lets assume OT is 100 guys and there is a ban and you can get rid of 200 over a year and as the year goes on make changes as need. I think there will be one and the union is totaly unprepared since they have never gone down this road before. yes theirs been threats, but we never had what is happening now in the world economy. If you are in the bottom 150, I would be preparing for a spring vacation and save your money and start putting together a plan that you can execute quickly. Our problem is most companies overseas require you to resign your senoirty number and no way would I do that. The rest of the companies are contract companies and UPS does not have a by pass clause that allows you to bypass recall to finish your contract, and they will know that, and could hurt your chances of being hired. The union will not come out and say we are fat or thin, because they know we are fat and dont want to create panic and anger, since they just pushed to get the over 60 crowd back in the up front seats to a tune of about 100 guys. They will wait till it happens and blame UPS and tell those folks they never saw it coming. Be prepared and count on no one but yourself to survive. DHL is the key, watch is close, and read Bob Millers email he sent out two weeks ago.
), I agree with Salty. While they may try and wring their hands as leverage against us for whatever purpose, perhaps many of you guys have been watching too much Keith Oberman (however it's spelled-he's a buffoon) and the rest of the misery merchants. As I jokingly said in another post if Fed Ex furloughs we might...in five years, but by then the economy will be booming due to the next Ponzi scheme. This may not be the end of the world, but some of you guys almost seem to want to see it from here
.
09-29-2008, 07:13 PM
#30
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
Furlough info from the contract and the union. If we are going to speculate, at least look at some info/facts before posting <g>
Can't displace out of seniority order. Could only hope they furloughed Mil folks out of seniority order. Ever hear of the Dept of Labor/Justice Military Class action lawsuit against AMR? Yep, UPS would regret such a reckless move. AMR lost by the way, settling on the way into Federal Court.
BM stated on Feb 08, 2008 regarding Crew Staffing and Displacements.
"It is important to know that the Company has not disputed the Association’s numbers. The Company, however, makes an assumption that crewmembers will rescue the system by picking up high percentages of open time."
BM stated on Sept 19, 2008:
"have received many expressions of concern-especially from our junior members-regarding rumors that the Company could potentially conduct a pilot furlough should the DHL deal collapse. Indeed, a top UPS official speaking to crewmembers in Cologne several weeks ago would not rule out the possibility when specifically asked. Since that time, the Company has stated that they have no furlough plans. We take them at their word. Nevertheless, the Executive Board believes it is necessary to clearly and publicly state our position.
"First and foremost, we are an Association that defends the rights of all members-including the most junior. Let there be no doubt, should UPS announce any furlough plans affecting IPA crewmembers, the Association will invoke Article 13.K.9., and recommend that all members refrain from flying open time. The Association's recommendation would remain in place until the Company removed any furlough threat.
I want to stress that we are not recommending an open time ban today. We are not predicting a furlough tomorrow. What we are doing is sending a very clear signal to UPS that IPA will not tolerate a furlough threat in the future.
Just as we did when the Company announced a wrongheaded plan in 2003, we will rally around and protect each other-junior and senior. At that time, the Association came together and protected our careers and livelihoods. If necessary, we will do the same again.
Article 8.
G. Furlough and Recall
1. Furlough Notice
When a reduction in crewmembers covered by this Agreement
becomes necessary, crewmembers will be furloughed in
reverse order of seniority. Each crewmember to be furloughed
shall be notified of the furlough and, if possible, of the probable
duration thereof in writing at his last filed address. When it
becomes necessary to furlough crewmembers covered by this
Agreement, at least ninety (90) calendar days notice of such
furlough shall be given to all crewmembers affected, or pay in
lieu thereof, except in cases when the furlough is caused by:
a. Acts of God;
b. Circumstances over which the Company has no control
(which by definition shall not include a reduction of
volume); or
c. Strikes or other work stoppages.
2. Recall
Recall from furlough shall be accomplished in order of seniority
and prior to the employment of new hires. Crewmembers
furloughed prior to the completion of their probationary period
shall be required to complete the remainder of their
probationary period subsequent to recall.
3. Assignment After Recall
Crewmembers returning from furlough shall resume active service in accordance with their seniority.
4. Filing Address/Telephone Notice
At the time of furlough, each furloughed crewmember shall file
his correct address and telephone number in writing with the
Office of the Chief Pilot and shall, within seven (7) calendar
days, advise the Office of the Chief Pilot, in writing, of any
subsequent change of address or telephone number while he
is on furlough.
5. Recall Notice
Furloughed crewmembers shall be notified of their recall in
writing. The notification shall specify a date of return to active
duty. A recalled crewmember may, but shall not be required
to, return to active duty less than thirty (30) calendar days after
the date of receipt of such notice. When justifiable
circumstances exist, additional time to report for duty may be
permitted by the Company.
6. Recall Notice Answer
Each crewmember shall answer his recall notice in writing.
Such answer must be received by the Office of the Chief Pilot
within twenty (20) calendar days from the time the recall notice
was received by the crewmember as evidenced by the return
receipt showing delivery to the crewmember’s last filed
address. The answer shall state the crewmember’s intent to
accept or reject recall.
a. Recalls shall be offered in seniority order and assigned in
reverse seniority order.
b. A crewmember shall have the right to decline recall but
shall indicate the date upon which he is available for recall
provided that he must be available within one (1) year from
the date of receipt of the notice of recall. However, if
during the period of furlough the crewmember entered into
a legally binding pilot employment contract, the
crewmember shall have up to two (2) years from the date
of the recall notice to return to work if a position is
available. The Company shall return the crewmember to
the first position which becomes available to which he is
entitled after the above date provided by the crewmember.
If the crewmember fails to return to work when he is
notified of such opening, he shall cease to have seniority
and his employment with the Company shall be considered
terminated for all purposes.
c. At the time of furlough, crewmembers shall retain their
seniority number for seven (7) years at which time such
furlough shall expire and seniority shall be forfeited.
d. Notifications and answers thereto required under this
Article shall be made either by certified or registered mail,
return receipt requested, or by telegram, reply requested,
within the time limits specified in this Article.
Can't displace out of seniority order. Could only hope they furloughed Mil folks out of seniority order. Ever hear of the Dept of Labor/Justice Military Class action lawsuit against AMR? Yep, UPS would regret such a reckless move. AMR lost by the way, settling on the way into Federal Court.
BM stated on Feb 08, 2008 regarding Crew Staffing and Displacements.
"It is important to know that the Company has not disputed the Association’s numbers. The Company, however, makes an assumption that crewmembers will rescue the system by picking up high percentages of open time."
BM stated on Sept 19, 2008:
"have received many expressions of concern-especially from our junior members-regarding rumors that the Company could potentially conduct a pilot furlough should the DHL deal collapse. Indeed, a top UPS official speaking to crewmembers in Cologne several weeks ago would not rule out the possibility when specifically asked. Since that time, the Company has stated that they have no furlough plans. We take them at their word. Nevertheless, the Executive Board believes it is necessary to clearly and publicly state our position.
"First and foremost, we are an Association that defends the rights of all members-including the most junior. Let there be no doubt, should UPS announce any furlough plans affecting IPA crewmembers, the Association will invoke Article 13.K.9., and recommend that all members refrain from flying open time. The Association's recommendation would remain in place until the Company removed any furlough threat.
I want to stress that we are not recommending an open time ban today. We are not predicting a furlough tomorrow. What we are doing is sending a very clear signal to UPS that IPA will not tolerate a furlough threat in the future.
Just as we did when the Company announced a wrongheaded plan in 2003, we will rally around and protect each other-junior and senior. At that time, the Association came together and protected our careers and livelihoods. If necessary, we will do the same again.
Article 8.
G. Furlough and Recall
1. Furlough Notice
When a reduction in crewmembers covered by this Agreement
becomes necessary, crewmembers will be furloughed in
reverse order of seniority. Each crewmember to be furloughed
shall be notified of the furlough and, if possible, of the probable
duration thereof in writing at his last filed address. When it
becomes necessary to furlough crewmembers covered by this
Agreement, at least ninety (90) calendar days notice of such
furlough shall be given to all crewmembers affected, or pay in
lieu thereof, except in cases when the furlough is caused by:
a. Acts of God;
b. Circumstances over which the Company has no control
(which by definition shall not include a reduction of
volume); or
c. Strikes or other work stoppages.
2. Recall
Recall from furlough shall be accomplished in order of seniority
and prior to the employment of new hires. Crewmembers
furloughed prior to the completion of their probationary period
shall be required to complete the remainder of their
probationary period subsequent to recall.
3. Assignment After Recall
Crewmembers returning from furlough shall resume active service in accordance with their seniority.
4. Filing Address/Telephone Notice
At the time of furlough, each furloughed crewmember shall file
his correct address and telephone number in writing with the
Office of the Chief Pilot and shall, within seven (7) calendar
days, advise the Office of the Chief Pilot, in writing, of any
subsequent change of address or telephone number while he
is on furlough.
5. Recall Notice
Furloughed crewmembers shall be notified of their recall in
writing. The notification shall specify a date of return to active
duty. A recalled crewmember may, but shall not be required
to, return to active duty less than thirty (30) calendar days after
the date of receipt of such notice. When justifiable
circumstances exist, additional time to report for duty may be
permitted by the Company.
6. Recall Notice Answer
Each crewmember shall answer his recall notice in writing.
Such answer must be received by the Office of the Chief Pilot
within twenty (20) calendar days from the time the recall notice
was received by the crewmember as evidenced by the return
receipt showing delivery to the crewmember’s last filed
address. The answer shall state the crewmember’s intent to
accept or reject recall.
a. Recalls shall be offered in seniority order and assigned in
reverse seniority order.
b. A crewmember shall have the right to decline recall but
shall indicate the date upon which he is available for recall
provided that he must be available within one (1) year from
the date of receipt of the notice of recall. However, if
during the period of furlough the crewmember entered into
a legally binding pilot employment contract, the
crewmember shall have up to two (2) years from the date
of the recall notice to return to work if a position is
available. The Company shall return the crewmember to
the first position which becomes available to which he is
entitled after the above date provided by the crewmember.
If the crewmember fails to return to work when he is
notified of such opening, he shall cease to have seniority
and his employment with the Company shall be considered
terminated for all purposes.
c. At the time of furlough, crewmembers shall retain their
seniority number for seven (7) years at which time such
furlough shall expire and seniority shall be forfeited.
d. Notifications and answers thereto required under this
Article shall be made either by certified or registered mail,
return receipt requested, or by telegram, reply requested,
within the time limits specified in this Article.
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