FDXLAG

Beats me I thought they put a "1" everywhere to give the ND a chance to move back up front. I could be wrong but I still think the company has the option to bump someone out the bottom if someone else slides in on top without the "1"s. Other wise they could end up with an extra 90 in the rt seat of the 777.

MaxKts

Without the -1 they cannot force someone out of their seat. Now what they can do is run one excess for a particular a/c and then if it forces an overmanning situation in another a/c they just have another excess bid for that a/c. Doing it this way takes more time to realign the seniority list but would probably create less overall movement.

DLax85

FDXLAG...I think you're wrong here.

No, the company doesn't have that option unless they put the "-1s" on those seats.

Those seats would just "grow" ---- and in the case of the 777 and 757, they need those seats to "grow".

They can control the rate of growth by manipulating the training letter (...to some extent).

If those seats are not in excess, then I think those who "come in on top" will go to training IAW the CBA, once the current training letters run-out from the previous bids.

I think this may explain the "excess bid(s)" part of "O's" e-mail.

If the "right #" of excessed pilots move into the "correct seats" (i.e. MEM 777, or better yet MEM 757, or HKG A300 best!!!) and don't all run to ANC like last time, then they may not need to excess out of ANC or MEM 727, and we could be "all done" after one round.

The bid pack #s indicate the MEM 727 FO & SO seats are pretty properly manned, with a small surplus in the 727 Capt seats --- which may fix itself soon as the excessed Capt's on 08-02 go off to training soon.

I think you may still see a move to "swap" the bottom 35, or so, 727 FOs with their more senior 727 SOs, who are now receiving "passover pay".

These 727 SOs must bid 727 FO on any bid to keep their passover pay.

I think there may be multiple ways the company could do this.

Put a "-1" on 727 FO...or "-1" on 727 SO...or both.

AFW_MD11

I don't see where the contract gives them that "option" - what section of the contract do you think might?

As I see it, posting multiple crew positions in excess is a two-edged sword.

1) it allows the company to move a set number of bodies out of a bid status but......

2) they also can't prevent senior guys from "bidding to relieve the excess" at the same time - defeating the purpose which is to bump/flush the most junior down to the bottom.

That's why they got the undesireable results of the cancelled bid from before - the entire spectrum of seniority moving between crew positions and also domiciles.

Which created massive training cycles and (potential) massive Move Package #1's across the spectrum - it was a bidding free-for-all.

I'm pretty sure if they don't post a crew position in excess (say there's no excess posted for the 777, just the Airbus), then everyone who doesn't voluntarily bid out of the 777 - stays - no matter how many new folks come into the bid status above/below them.

Anyone else have an opinion on that?

How has it worked in past excess bids - like the DC10 for example?

Did the guys who got excessed bump someone out of their seat on, say the Airbus, or the MD11, and then those guys had to find somewhere else to go (even though only the DC10 was posted in excess)? or did the DC10 guys just add to the number of pilots already in the various seats they chose to go to?

DLax85

I think your ANC reasoning is spot on.

...and they wouldn't even have to put the "-1" in ANC yet.

They can see how many folks go there to protect WB pay, and then run another excess bid, maybe accepting a little bit of growth.

Overall, I like your bidding strategy ---- it exudes Unity!!

31Hz

I look at the "Excess of 1" as a revolving door. It's not the single involuntary excess they care about. The "Excess of 1" means they have about the right number of seat-holders, they just don't like the seniority order. It allows anyone to bid-to-relieve the 1. It allows any senior first officer in that seat to bid captain if he can hold it. This is what happened on 8-02. Some 727 captains bid-to-relieve the left seat excess but the senior first officers bidding-to-relieve from the right seat into the left seat canceled them out. All of them weren't over-60 flight engineers. Posting 8-02 was an excess of 30 from the left seat of the Boeing. On the final 38 were involuntarily excessed. This is frustrating to someone who takes the first captain upgrade he can hold and later gets bumped by a senior first officer. Nevertheless, it is the right of seniority. I'm waiting to see how many senior Airbus first officers go to the left seat.

Logs

DLax85-

Your logic re: excessed widebody captains not going to 777 FO training for an extended period makes sense, however, that is if the company tacks those excessed onto the end of the current letter, as opposed to reworking it entirely. I can't find anything in the contract that addresses that issue specifically, though the reasonable man theory says bids train sequentially. I also asked our contract admin folks; they said it should go as you suggested but ...

FDXLAG

Beats me I have been wrong before and have no doubt you guys are right here. But you have to admit that it pretty stupid to put "no pilot may be awarded or assigned a crew position at an FDA base that would cause an excess at that base" if no pilot may be awarded or or assigned a crew position that could cause an excess at any base.

Kind of like if the sign says No Parking M-F and your IPhone says it is Sunday you should be OK.

But I guess they meant: no pilot may be awarded or assigned a crew position at an FDA base that would increase an excess at that base.

But if contracts were written like that we wouldn't need lawyers.

FamilyATM

I think MAXKTS hit it on the head. If the company learned anything from the last excess, they will excess one a/c at a time, write a bogus training letter and then excess the next targeted a/c, write bogus training letter and then excess again and then again and again. This way they re-align the senority list with out anyone going to training till they have the crews where they want them. Probably takes about 8 to 12 weeks to run all these successive bids. That puts the real training to start around what, June '09. Mgt may not understand how true line holders think and bid but given enough tries they do learn. Only took them about a year and a couple months this time, just a little longer then the union.

fdx10

How many will be the initial excess, what planes, and when?