Latest on UPS and IPA furlough prevention
03-22-2009, 10:43 AM
#101
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: -400 FO
Posts: 300
Originally Posted by congowings
"This generation of geezers is pathetic." - Seinfeld
At least the first 800 (geezers and all) seemed to understand what unity meant for the union to succeed. Since the seniority list has almost tripled and approximately 250+(?) of those 800 have since retired, one might wonder how much benefit there is to the group as a whole when divisive comments like this abound. The future of this union and the working relationship with the company has passed to other hands. It is unfortunate that the most vocal posters have been sending out hostile messages to fellow members - - - not a very encouraging sign for future solidarity within the union. It does no good to debate the merits of each side's argument - but frankly, some of these posts concerning the "geezers" remind me of impatient relatives waiting for their elders to go to a better place so they can hurry up and get what they are entitled to - even if they need to help them along. Personally, I have appreciated all the knowledge that has been given to me by all the "geezers" who took the time to educate and have given up so much of their free time in order to make this as tolerable a place as can be to work. That also goes for the "geezers to be" who have done the same. As far as 'feelings' for the company, first hand dealings with this company sets the tone - and I think it is safe to say most of us have had some rather unpleasant experiences tarnishing our opinion. The longer one works here, the more 'experiences' you rack up.
Curious also - what 'pinnacle' in the cargo airline industry have you seen in the last 20 years?
At least the first 800 (geezers and all) seemed to understand what unity meant for the union to succeed. Since the seniority list has almost tripled and approximately 250+(?) of those 800 have since retired, one might wonder how much benefit there is to the group as a whole when divisive comments like this abound. The future of this union and the working relationship with the company has passed to other hands. It is unfortunate that the most vocal posters have been sending out hostile messages to fellow members - - - not a very encouraging sign for future solidarity within the union. It does no good to debate the merits of each side's argument - but frankly, some of these posts concerning the "geezers" remind me of impatient relatives waiting for their elders to go to a better place so they can hurry up and get what they are entitled to - even if they need to help them along. Personally, I have appreciated all the knowledge that has been given to me by all the "geezers" who took the time to educate and have given up so much of their free time in order to make this as tolerable a place as can be to work. That also goes for the "geezers to be" who have done the same. As far as 'feelings' for the company, first hand dealings with this company sets the tone - and I think it is safe to say most of us have had some rather unpleasant experiences tarnishing our opinion. The longer one works here, the more 'experiences' you rack up.
Curious also - what 'pinnacle' in the cargo airline industry have you seen in the last 20 years?
Congo,
When I visit the Bar and Grill I sometimes get the same feeling about the over 60 crowd that you get from this generally junior crowd on APC. Somehow I feel that this furlough is payback for the lousy contract that was signed and I was not on property to vote on it. I'm going to vomit all over the next person that I hear that from. That $hit is history. Many people play the card of "I've been furloughed before, we all go through it, now it's your turn". Guess what, most of us have that card, many from a few airlines. I will be officially furloughed from the 2nd largest passenger carrier since 2002 and now the 2nd largest cargo carrier (depending how it's measured). I don't feel a sense of entitlement but I do feel a sense of loss from a legislation change that I didn't have a say in, ok, that's over too, I'll move on.
You want solidarity then realize that the the over 60 crowd got an absolute windfall and now we at the bottom are feeling the fall out from it in this time of economic uncertainty. I do blame most of this on the way the government and UPS has handled things. UPS could have sweetened the pot to move things along with retirement incentives and health insurance.The over 60 crowd got an absolute windfall and it would be nice to hear a few more (I heard it once) say "I got lucky" rather than ranting about discrimination or getting even with UPS. I will say this, most of the guys I have worked with have been great guys.
So far, my choice (in the bottom 100) is to tow the line and get ready for a furlough. To give solidarity is to say things like: full pay to the last day, don't change the contract for me, furlough my a$$ so you (we) can all ride a good contract. Ok, I'm on board, these are the things I've been saying in public, although it's difficult. I agree with you that "geezer" and other names are not appropriate but aside from that what do you need to feel a sense of unity? I will encourage my fellow pilots not to use derogatory names describing the over 60 crowd, like: geezer, near dead, herpes, geriatric crowd, grandpa.
Had to get one last run! Joking! Please guys, that's enough. This solidarity goes both ways. Now it's your turn, what are you going to do for solidarity?
03-22-2009, 10:55 AM
#102
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Working
Posts: 44
"I clearly recall certain individuals posting portions of the TA on a public website (DURING NEGOTIATIONS!) with the sole purpose of UNDERMINING the negotiating team. Do you also recall this?" - AvgJoe
As much as I would like to forget it - no - I remember it very well. However, which negotiations are you bringing to mind? My paint brush missed a spot - meaning our last contract negotiations. I was referring mostly to the first two contracts. And even though there were differences in opinion, I can't remember the level of 'intense debating' that was exhibited during that last one. It seems that Contract Negotiations 101 was thrown out the door. Some of the most basic and simply rules were totally disregarded to the detriment of the entire union membership - regardless of which 'side' you were on. I regret seeing the same sort of divisive behavior continue with the current situation. I especially regret that it is carried out in front of the company.
"The younger pilots, having f-i-n-a-l-l-y made it to a "stable" major feel like the rules have been changed at halftime in the game." - AvgJoe
I too understand the frustration felt by the junior/younger pilots. However, rules change - sometimes to an individual's benefit and sometimes to their detriment. It is a rare pilot who has entered this profession and breezed through it with no detours. I image when that particular law was enacted there was a cry of foul then too. And with the new administration setting out to change an unprecedented number of tax laws one can assume there will be no shortage of tax payers crying foul again. I know - different subject - but anything that affects the bottom line of our individual finances is of personal great concern. And I believe this pilot group has seen more of its share of career detours and road blocks - which is why most are very sensitive to the plight of our most junior members. But as you say, a civil tone is always better. One is more likely to listen to another's point of view if delivered in a tone which invites constructive dialog instead of defending oneself.
We don't live in a perfect world and things are not always as I would like them to be (my road at UPS has been rocky at best, lol). But I try to maintain a real perspective and not expect the best case scenario to work out. That seems to keep the disappointments from consuming my day to day life. I see from your posts that you too seem to have a realistic approach to the issues at UPS and I enjoy reading your perspective.
As much as I would like to forget it - no - I remember it very well. However, which negotiations are you bringing to mind? My paint brush missed a spot - meaning our last contract negotiations. I was referring mostly to the first two contracts. And even though there were differences in opinion, I can't remember the level of 'intense debating' that was exhibited during that last one. It seems that Contract Negotiations 101 was thrown out the door. Some of the most basic and simply rules were totally disregarded to the detriment of the entire union membership - regardless of which 'side' you were on. I regret seeing the same sort of divisive behavior continue with the current situation. I especially regret that it is carried out in front of the company.
"The younger pilots, having f-i-n-a-l-l-y made it to a "stable" major feel like the rules have been changed at halftime in the game." - AvgJoe
I too understand the frustration felt by the junior/younger pilots. However, rules change - sometimes to an individual's benefit and sometimes to their detriment. It is a rare pilot who has entered this profession and breezed through it with no detours. I image when that particular law was enacted there was a cry of foul then too. And with the new administration setting out to change an unprecedented number of tax laws one can assume there will be no shortage of tax payers crying foul again. I know - different subject - but anything that affects the bottom line of our individual finances is of personal great concern. And I believe this pilot group has seen more of its share of career detours and road blocks - which is why most are very sensitive to the plight of our most junior members. But as you say, a civil tone is always better. One is more likely to listen to another's point of view if delivered in a tone which invites constructive dialog instead of defending oneself.
We don't live in a perfect world and things are not always as I would like them to be (my road at UPS has been rocky at best, lol). But I try to maintain a real perspective and not expect the best case scenario to work out. That seems to keep the disappointments from consuming my day to day life. I see from your posts that you too seem to have a realistic approach to the issues at UPS and I enjoy reading your perspective.
03-22-2009, 11:09 AM
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by Captain Cook
These guys are the reason you are seeing the unity bleed out of the IPA. These guys need to do the right thing and retire for the sake of this organization. And, I believe that if we furlough, the IPA is history. UPS will have busted this union.
Joe
03-22-2009, 11:20 AM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by congowings
"I clearly recall certain individuals posting portions of the TA on a public website (DURING NEGOTIATIONS!) with the sole purpose of UNDERMINING the negotiating team. Do you also recall this?" - AvgJoe
As much as I would like to forget it - no - I remember it very well. However, which negotiations are you bringing to mind? My paint brush missed a spot - meaning our last contract negotiations. I was referring mostly to the first two contracts. And even though there were differences in opinion, I can't remember the level of 'intense debating' that was exhibited during that last one. It seems that Contract Negotiations 101 was thrown out the door. Some of the most basic and simply rules were totally disregarded to the detriment of the entire union membership - regardless of which 'side' you were on. I regret seeing the same sort of divisive behavior continue with the current situation. I especially regret that it is carried out in front of the company.
"The younger pilots, having f-i-n-a-l-l-y made it to a "stable" major feel like the rules have been changed at halftime in the game." - AvgJoe
I too understand the frustration felt by the junior/younger pilots. However, rules change - sometimes to an individual's benefit and sometimes to their detriment. It is a rare pilot who has entered this profession and breezed through it with no detours. I image when that particular law was enacted there was a cry of foul then too. And with the new administration setting out to change an unprecedented number of tax laws one can assume there will be no shortage of tax payers crying foul again. I know - different subject - but anything that affects the bottom line of our individual finances is of personal great concern. And I believe this pilot group has seen more of its share of career detours and road blocks - which is why most are very sensitive to the plight of our most junior members. But as you say, a civil tone is always better. One is more likely to listen to another's point of view if delivered in a tone which invites constructive dialog instead of defending oneself.
We don't live in a perfect world and things are not always as I would like them to be (my road at UPS has been rocky at best, lol). But I try to maintain a real perspective and not expect the best case scenario to work out. That seems to keep the disappointments from consuming my day to day life. I see from your posts that you too seem to have a realistic approach to the issues at UPS and I enjoy reading your perspective.
As much as I would like to forget it - no - I remember it very well. However, which negotiations are you bringing to mind? My paint brush missed a spot - meaning our last contract negotiations. I was referring mostly to the first two contracts. And even though there were differences in opinion, I can't remember the level of 'intense debating' that was exhibited during that last one. It seems that Contract Negotiations 101 was thrown out the door. Some of the most basic and simply rules were totally disregarded to the detriment of the entire union membership - regardless of which 'side' you were on. I regret seeing the same sort of divisive behavior continue with the current situation. I especially regret that it is carried out in front of the company.
"The younger pilots, having f-i-n-a-l-l-y made it to a "stable" major feel like the rules have been changed at halftime in the game." - AvgJoe
I too understand the frustration felt by the junior/younger pilots. However, rules change - sometimes to an individual's benefit and sometimes to their detriment. It is a rare pilot who has entered this profession and breezed through it with no detours. I image when that particular law was enacted there was a cry of foul then too. And with the new administration setting out to change an unprecedented number of tax laws one can assume there will be no shortage of tax payers crying foul again. I know - different subject - but anything that affects the bottom line of our individual finances is of personal great concern. And I believe this pilot group has seen more of its share of career detours and road blocks - which is why most are very sensitive to the plight of our most junior members. But as you say, a civil tone is always better. One is more likely to listen to another's point of view if delivered in a tone which invites constructive dialog instead of defending oneself.
We don't live in a perfect world and things are not always as I would like them to be (my road at UPS has been rocky at best, lol). But I try to maintain a real perspective and not expect the best case scenario to work out. That seems to keep the disappointments from consuming my day to day life. I see from your posts that you too seem to have a realistic approach to the issues at UPS and I enjoy reading your perspective.
Joe
03-22-2009, 11:42 AM
#105
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 101
Originally Posted by Avg Joe
I think your frustration and anger might be clouding your better judgement. I can truly empathize with your frustration, but having been beaten over the head with the reality bat in my earlier years I'm confident in predicting the union and UPS will survive.
Joe
Joe
Explain to me how this union will be stronger if we layoff our most junior, all while some of our most senior are simply gaming the system?
Even if I don't get furloughed, I won't be able to sleep at night if we furlough even just one pilot, because I know how devastating it could have/would have been for me and my family.
I wonder if the older pilots gaming the system will be able to sleep at night if we furlough?
03-22-2009, 11:59 AM
#106
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Working
Posts: 44
"I've heard about a 68 year old 747 FE who bid to DC8 FE and is currently on a 6-month cruise (at full pay) because he knows they probably won't train him on the DC8." - Captain Cook
I have no doubt that some flying at UPS are 'gaming the system' to their advantage. And some might even brag about it. Having no personal knowledge of the examples offered, I can only say that it has been my experience that when rumors are spread, the ingredients of the levels of truth are never exact. But I also have seen that 'gaming the system' is not a junior or senior only activity. Many of us have taken pride in working things to our advantage - and sometimes expressing this out loud without realizing how it might sound to our audience. In good times I would imagine most would laugh. But these are not good times and it is unfortunate that there are members who seem to be unable or unwilling to keep that in mind. I do feel that these individuals are in a very small minority and it is possible that the real details of the circumstances are not really known.
Many years past, when IPA was going through moments of unpleasantness, there were many members who were just 'flying their line'. Even then there were members who decided to improve their life - some senior and some junior. There was heavy debate on the subject then too - the greater good, etc. It will always be like that. Doesn't matter who you fly for. You are always going to have members who serve themselves. But I would hope that our membership, especially our junior members, will believe that the majority here have only the best intentions to our group - irregardless of the heated debates.
"These guys are the reason you are seeing the unity bleed out of the IPA. These guys need to do the right thing and retire for the sake of this organization. And, I believe that if we furlough, the IPA is history. UPS will have busted this union." - Captain Cook
I don't believe unity is determined only by the actions of a few. I agree that this could be a defining moment in IPA's history. Instead of hanging on to the idea of senior members leaving, perhaps showing solidarity behind our EB to the company would go farther. In my opinion that is one of the biggest differences between the EB of years past and the EB now - through our own actions the company has realized that our president does not have our full support - and that goes a long way in dealing with this company.
Your points are well taken, Cook.
I have no doubt that some flying at UPS are 'gaming the system' to their advantage. And some might even brag about it. Having no personal knowledge of the examples offered, I can only say that it has been my experience that when rumors are spread, the ingredients of the levels of truth are never exact. But I also have seen that 'gaming the system' is not a junior or senior only activity. Many of us have taken pride in working things to our advantage - and sometimes expressing this out loud without realizing how it might sound to our audience. In good times I would imagine most would laugh. But these are not good times and it is unfortunate that there are members who seem to be unable or unwilling to keep that in mind. I do feel that these individuals are in a very small minority and it is possible that the real details of the circumstances are not really known.
Many years past, when IPA was going through moments of unpleasantness, there were many members who were just 'flying their line'. Even then there were members who decided to improve their life - some senior and some junior. There was heavy debate on the subject then too - the greater good, etc. It will always be like that. Doesn't matter who you fly for. You are always going to have members who serve themselves. But I would hope that our membership, especially our junior members, will believe that the majority here have only the best intentions to our group - irregardless of the heated debates.
"These guys are the reason you are seeing the unity bleed out of the IPA. These guys need to do the right thing and retire for the sake of this organization. And, I believe that if we furlough, the IPA is history. UPS will have busted this union." - Captain Cook
I don't believe unity is determined only by the actions of a few. I agree that this could be a defining moment in IPA's history. Instead of hanging on to the idea of senior members leaving, perhaps showing solidarity behind our EB to the company would go farther. In my opinion that is one of the biggest differences between the EB of years past and the EB now - through our own actions the company has realized that our president does not have our full support - and that goes a long way in dealing with this company.
Your points are well taken, Cook.
03-22-2009, 12:04 PM
#107
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Working
Posts: 44
"Explain to me how this union will be stronger if we layoff our most junior, all while some of our most senior are simply gaming the system?" - Captain Cook
I don't believe AvgJoe means that the union will be stronger without our most junior - just that it will go on.
I don't believe AvgJoe means that the union will be stronger without our most junior - just that it will go on.
03-22-2009, 12:18 PM
#108
With The Resistance
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Burning the Agitprop of the Apparat
Posts: 6,191
Many of us expect our life to follow a well defined trajectory much like a well planned and executed flight. We develop expectations and it can be difficult to cope when those expectations don't develop as planned.
If a pilot is faced with a reject, air turnback or missed approach the untrained mind is likely to feel anger, resentment and fear. The trained mind reacts with little regard to the emotions and works to resolve the problem.
If a pilot is faced with a reject, air turnback or missed approach the untrained mind is likely to feel anger, resentment and fear. The trained mind reacts with little regard to the emotions and works to resolve the problem.
03-22-2009, 12:29 PM
#109
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
Captain Cook,
I agree with Avg Joe and Congo regarding
1. rumours
2. Unity
And Jungle nails it above.
The truth on rumours is more legend than fact. Strip away the numbers and emebellishments and you get one who did half alleged.
Unity can be enhanced exactly like 2003 when 100 had the notice in hand and were told by UPS that "No, you can't get a job on the ramp" for medical benefits and some work. Did we get 100%? NO, but by golly 97% were enrgized and seared once again with the true capability of UPS decision making.
CC, don't let 3% make you think 97% will capitulate and fold. It could be one of our better hours if we take the challenge.
Right now, UPS management and Labor (not your run of the mill supervisor ACP's) are licking the chops for the junior 300 to turn full blast and roast the 60+ and hope we disintegrate. Once again, 3% can attempt to ruin the 97%.
But we all see evidence of restraint through the real trepidation and anxiety.
The majority will rise and take care of anyone furloughed if UPS makes that business decision. Our IPA decision is and always has been "We take care of our own". If we can collect signing bonus money for deceased IPA folks and make their families whole to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars, see no reason we can't do same for our living families with real needs until we get them back on the line.
Maybe am an optimist, but was, ironically, taught this IPA attitude by many over 60 (and yes, under 60 )senior folks.
100% IPA ain't just a slogan, it's a committment for 97% of us. ( we'll carry the 3%ers just like in the 97 strike and 03 furlough period)
I agree with Avg Joe and Congo regarding
1. rumours
2. Unity
And Jungle nails it above.
The truth on rumours is more legend than fact. Strip away the numbers and emebellishments and you get one who did half alleged.
Unity can be enhanced exactly like 2003 when 100 had the notice in hand and were told by UPS that "No, you can't get a job on the ramp" for medical benefits and some work. Did we get 100%? NO, but by golly 97% were enrgized and seared once again with the true capability of UPS decision making.
CC, don't let 3% make you think 97% will capitulate and fold. It could be one of our better hours if we take the challenge.
Right now, UPS management and Labor (not your run of the mill supervisor ACP's) are licking the chops for the junior 300 to turn full blast and roast the 60+ and hope we disintegrate. Once again, 3% can attempt to ruin the 97%.
But we all see evidence of restraint through the real trepidation and anxiety.
The majority will rise and take care of anyone furloughed if UPS makes that business decision. Our IPA decision is and always has been "We take care of our own". If we can collect signing bonus money for deceased IPA folks and make their families whole to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars, see no reason we can't do same for our living families with real needs until we get them back on the line.
Maybe am an optimist, but was, ironically, taught this IPA attitude by many over 60 (and yes, under 60 )senior folks.
100% IPA ain't just a slogan, it's a committment for 97% of us. ( we'll carry the 3%ers just like in the 97 strike and 03 furlough period)
03-22-2009, 12:37 PM
#110
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Working
Posts: 44
"When I visit the Bar and Grill I sometimes get the same feeling about the over 60 crowd that you get from this generally junior crowd on APC. Somehow I feel that this furlough is payback for the lousy contract that was signed and I was not on property to vote on it." - LuckyDawg
LuckyDawg - perhaps I missed quite a few threads on B&G - entirely possible. Other than the arguments concerning 'furlough fund' I have not seen the over 60 crowd chiming in with negative feedback to the junior membership. Not sure exactly what was meant by your 'payback' comment. I hope that wasn't brought up as meaning the union has anything to do with a furlough. That can be dropped solely in the company's lap - filed under 'just business' on their part.
Yea - 'I've been furloughed before' can get real old very quickly - sort of like our mom/dad telling us the same old stories again and again to prove a point. By now you have realized that you are among the kings/queens of furlough experience - and it is natural you are going to hear it. Human nature to express our experiences to same. Not saying all - but I found some of the advice I was given during those difficult times by others who had been there rather helpful.
"This solidarity goes both ways. Now it's your turn, what are you going to do for solidarity?" - LuckDawg
Well, I hope I will be one of the solutions instead of a problem. There are not that many tools at our disposal. I have always been mindful of preparing for the future which I can control - but I am also of a mind to not borrow trouble. Perhaps there will be a meeting of the minds between IPA and UPS. If this was at a different time under different circumstances, I would say there was no doubt that the company is doing business as usual with the union. Economic uncertainty makes this a new path for our union to walk down. I think your attitude will be part of the solution and I thank you for your honest post.
LuckyDawg - perhaps I missed quite a few threads on B&G - entirely possible. Other than the arguments concerning 'furlough fund' I have not seen the over 60 crowd chiming in with negative feedback to the junior membership. Not sure exactly what was meant by your 'payback' comment. I hope that wasn't brought up as meaning the union has anything to do with a furlough. That can be dropped solely in the company's lap - filed under 'just business' on their part.
Yea - 'I've been furloughed before' can get real old very quickly - sort of like our mom/dad telling us the same old stories again and again to prove a point. By now you have realized that you are among the kings/queens of furlough experience - and it is natural you are going to hear it. Human nature to express our experiences to same. Not saying all - but I found some of the advice I was given during those difficult times by others who had been there rather helpful.
"This solidarity goes both ways. Now it's your turn, what are you going to do for solidarity?" - LuckDawg
Well, I hope I will be one of the solutions instead of a problem. There are not that many tools at our disposal. I have always been mindful of preparing for the future which I can control - but I am also of a mind to not borrow trouble. Perhaps there will be a meeting of the minds between IPA and UPS. If this was at a different time under different circumstances, I would say there was no doubt that the company is doing business as usual with the union. Economic uncertainty makes this a new path for our union to walk down. I think your attitude will be part of the solution and I thank you for your honest post.
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