Latest on UPS and IPA furlough prevention
03-21-2009, 06:05 AM
#71
Tri-tanic operator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Doggie
Posts: 2,382
Originally Posted by Avg Joe
I absolutely agree one of us is missing the obvious... 
Hypothetically... after the current 200 managers become IPA what prevents UPS from hiring 200 more non-IPA managers? (paying them more than an IPA Capt and elevating them to a different class and craft, for example)
I think it is a terrible ASSUMPTION that the JOBS (checking, training, etc...) that the current managers perform will come with the bodies. UPS firmly believes these are management functions.
I understand the "airline within an airline" situation very well and its many adverse effects upon the IPA. It just seems to me that trying to put the proverbial cat back in the bag 20 years later will not be successful. As I have asked before... what PREVENTS UPS from hiring more managers to perform the functions they believe to be rightly that of management?
Joe
Hypothetically... after the current 200 managers become IPA what prevents UPS from hiring 200 more non-IPA managers? (paying them more than an IPA Capt and elevating them to a different class and craft, for example)
I think it is a terrible ASSUMPTION that the JOBS (checking, training, etc...) that the current managers perform will come with the bodies. UPS firmly believes these are management functions.
I understand the "airline within an airline" situation very well and its many adverse effects upon the IPA. It just seems to me that trying to put the proverbial cat back in the bag 20 years later will not be successful. As I have asked before... what PREVENTS UPS from hiring more managers to perform the functions they believe to be rightly that of management?
Joe
But isn't the IPA bringing the managers onto the seniority list really about bringing the jobs within the union ? Hasn't it been determined that these "supervisors" already are in the same class and craft (that Dorsey case) ?
In other words, its not really the 200 bodies we bring into the IPA, but rather the 200 jobs that are brought into union representation.
And your suggestion that 200 additional "elevated" class/craft managers would be hired (to replace the transfers) would be contrary to any lawsuit that brought the jobs over to the IPA in the first place. It would have to be 200 different jobs.
I'm probably missing something, just trying to understand your argument.
03-21-2009, 09:39 AM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by CactusCrew
Just to tag along, I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express, haven't been at UPS for 20 years, and I am not an expert on the RLA and/or Dorsey vs UPS ...
But isn't the IPA bringing the managers onto the seniority list really about bringing the jobs within the union ? Hasn't it been determined that these "supervisors" already are in the same class and craft (that Dorsey case) ?
In other words, its not really the 200 bodies we bring into the IPA, but rather the 200 jobs that are brought into union representation.
And your suggestion that 200 additional "elevated" class/craft managers would be hired (to replace the transfers) would be contrary to any lawsuit that brought the jobs over to the IPA in the first place. It would have to be 200 different jobs.
I'm probably missing something, just trying to understand your argument.
But isn't the IPA bringing the managers onto the seniority list really about bringing the jobs within the union ? Hasn't it been determined that these "supervisors" already are in the same class and craft (that Dorsey case) ?
In other words, its not really the 200 bodies we bring into the IPA, but rather the 200 jobs that are brought into union representation.
And your suggestion that 200 additional "elevated" class/craft managers would be hired (to replace the transfers) would be contrary to any lawsuit that brought the jobs over to the IPA in the first place. It would have to be 200 different jobs.
I'm probably missing something, just trying to understand your argument.
Where would a court draw the line between what job a union pilot would perform and what jobs are legitimately "management"? Does every job that is now performed by a flight qualified manager (same class and craft argument) become an IPA opportunity? (off the top of my head... new aircraft acceptance flts, mx ferry flts, all training functions - new course development, manual re-writes, bulletins, all procedure changes, all pilot hiring, de-ice programs, etc... the list would be extensive despite the ribbing we give the managers about being useless.
Joe
PS... Congo... I have no disagreement w/ anything in your latest post.
03-21-2009, 10:31 AM
#73
Tri-tanic operator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Doggie
Posts: 2,382
Joe,
Maybe I am seeing it as too cut and dry. Or it hasn't been pursued mostly because of the seniority integration of the sups. Definitely an issue there.
As to the jobs that "came off the top of your head" ... Yes they should be IPA opportunities.
These jobs were performed by union member line pilots who went into management at my other 3 airlines. ALPA had a seperate dues category for them, something like "management inactive", but some of them still paid some dues because they benefited from the contract negotiated by the union.
As a matter of fact, the VP of Flight Ops at America West was on the seniority list !
Their pay was on an individual basis. Mostly bonus on top of line pilot base pay. And there was lateral movement when folks burned out.
Nothing like the airline within an airline we have here ... FWIW.
But you probably knew that !
Maybe I am seeing it as too cut and dry. Or it hasn't been pursued mostly because of the seniority integration of the sups. Definitely an issue there.
As to the jobs that "came off the top of your head" ... Yes they should be IPA opportunities.
These jobs were performed by union member line pilots who went into management at my other 3 airlines. ALPA had a seperate dues category for them, something like "management inactive", but some of them still paid some dues because they benefited from the contract negotiated by the union.
As a matter of fact, the VP of Flight Ops at America West was on the seniority list !
Their pay was on an individual basis. Mostly bonus on top of line pilot base pay. And there was lateral movement when folks burned out.
Nothing like the airline within an airline we have here ... FWIW.
But you probably knew that !
03-21-2009, 11:16 AM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by CactusCrew
Joe,
Maybe I am seeing it as too cut and dry. Or it hasn't been pursued mostly because of the seniority integration of the sups. Definitely an issue there.
As to the jobs that "came off the top of your head" ... Yes they should be IPA opportunities.
Maybe I am seeing it as too cut and dry. Or it hasn't been pursued mostly because of the seniority integration of the sups. Definitely an issue there.
As to the jobs that "came off the top of your head" ... Yes they should be IPA opportunities.
Why not simply sue for the JOBS then? Why complicate the matter with the thorny issue of integrating the bodies?
Joe
03-21-2009, 11:18 AM
#75
Tri-tanic operator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Doggie
Posts: 2,382
Originally Posted by Avg Joe
Why not simply sue for the JOBS then? Why complicate the matter with the thorny issue of integrating the bodies?
Joe
Joe
Because we are not in charge ... we don't see the whole picture ... we aren't at that pay grade.
That does make vastly more sense though.
Me too !
03-21-2009, 11:23 AM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by CactusCrew
Because we are not in charge ... we don't see the whole picture ... we aren't at that pay grade.
That does make vastly more sense though.
Me too !
That does make vastly more sense though.
Me too !
Joe
03-21-2009, 11:25 AM
#77
Banned
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 245
Originally Posted by CactusCrew
As a matter of fact, the VP of Flight Ops at America West was on the seniority list !
the trucking industry sure is different!
Last edited by SLPII; 03-21-2009 at 01:27 PM.
03-21-2009, 01:07 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
Avg Joe,
Have you talked to an EB member lately? It may change your comments on the subject. They take alot of calls. Some days they can take more, some less. Meetings etc may delay a call response. No reason not to call IMO.
Have you talked to an EB member lately? It may change your comments on the subject. They take alot of calls. Some days they can take more, some less. Meetings etc may delay a call response. No reason not to call IMO.
03-21-2009, 01:42 PM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Avg Joe,
Have you talked to an EB member lately? It may change your comments on the subject. They take alot of calls. Some days they can take more, some less. Meetings etc may delay a call response. No reason not to call IMO.
Have you talked to an EB member lately? It may change your comments on the subject. They take alot of calls. Some days they can take more, some less. Meetings etc may delay a call response. No reason not to call IMO.
I have read everything the union has published on the subject. I'm unimpressed with the skimpy rationale provided and the failure to anticipate and answer some of these VERY basic questions, such as the ones I've posed. The vote to pursue the integration of the managers seemed to be putting the cart before the horse, IMO. Normally one builds a case, then seeks a decision. The EB's inability to thoroughly investigate all the ramifications of this action and effectively communicate them to the membership has... (how do I gently say?)... not been terribly confidence inspiring.
Of course I realize others' mileage may vary on this subject.
Joe
03-21-2009, 01:56 PM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Brown ones
Posts: 216
FWIW...at other previous airlines, the duties of which you speak were taken care of my union line slugs. The only one that I can think of that may not have been was a manual re-write. Even bulletins and proceedure changes were done by union guys on special assignment. This was still much cheaper than 200+ paper pushing MRB writers.
Originally Posted by Avg Joe
Where would a court draw the line between what job a union pilot would perform and what jobs are legitimately "management"? Does every job that is now performed by a flight qualified manager (same class and craft argument) become an IPA opportunity? (off the top of my head... new aircraft acceptance flts, mx ferry flts, all training functions - new course development, manual re-writes, bulletins, all procedure changes, all pilot hiring, de-ice programs, etc... the list would be extensive despite the ribbing we give the managers about being useless.
Joe
PS... Congo... I have no disagreement w/ anything in your latest post.
Joe
PS... Congo... I have no disagreement w/ anything in your latest post.
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