UPS regret
07-22-2009 | 08:11 PM
#91
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,235
Likes: 0
well then the answer to your problem is obvious. If it isn't too late, take the full time LOA or better yet, quit. Go get yourself one of those other ways of making a living and sleep in your own bed each night. Problem solved.
I too am sorry that you made the choice to come to work here. It's not like any "generation" of pilot that has come through the doors here has had a particularly easy time. Your group is no better or worse than those before you in that regard. Yea, I might have it pretty well now, but 18 years ago it was no picnic here. 18 years from now, should you have not committed hari kari in a giant pitty part for yourself, you'll be sitting pretty too and I'll be on a beach somewhere waiving as you fly over.
I too am sorry that you made the choice to come to work here. It's not like any "generation" of pilot that has come through the doors here has had a particularly easy time. Your group is no better or worse than those before you in that regard. Yea, I might have it pretty well now, but 18 years ago it was no picnic here. 18 years from now, should you have not committed hari kari in a giant pitty part for yourself, you'll be sitting pretty too and I'll be on a beach somewhere waiving as you fly over.
07-23-2009 | 03:45 AM
#92
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,899
Likes: 0
From: Leftof longitudinal
notadog,
You highlighted it, but need to reread the rest of the collective bargaining agreement. "except as otherwise provided in this Agreement." is all the supervisors are doing. Very little Scope violation. Our CBA gives UPS plenty of flying in many other Articles.
MEF alone is a killer to IPA jobs and it falls under the "except as
otherwise provided in this Agreement" That's not politics. That is a legal document.
The politics is allowing the "except as otherwise provided in this Agreement." to persists after so many CBA's, but then the majority of the IPA ratified them.
You highlighted it, but need to reread the rest of the collective bargaining agreement. "except as otherwise provided in this Agreement." is all the supervisors are doing. Very little Scope violation. Our CBA gives UPS plenty of flying in many other Articles.
MEF alone is a killer to IPA jobs and it falls under the "except as
otherwise provided in this Agreement" That's not politics. That is a legal document.
The politics is allowing the "except as otherwise provided in this Agreement." to persists after so many CBA's, but then the majority of the IPA ratified them.
The flying is already ours. It's always been ours. Read Article I of the Agreement. Start here:
Article 1, C. (2):
It is agreed that all present and future domestic flying on
aircraft with a payload weight of more than 12,899 lbs. [19,000
lbs. for international flights] including but not limited to, revenue
flying, ferry flights, charters, training flights, test flights, or other
utilization of Company owned or leased aircraft in and for the
service of the Company, or any affiliate of the Company, shall
be performed by crewmembers on the United Parcel Service
Crewmember Seniority List in accordance with the terms and
conditions of this Agreement or any other applicable agreement
between the Company and the Association, except as
otherwise provided in this Agreement.
Then, give the IPA a call and ask the following question:
"Over the last 12 months, how many flight segments did management fly that would otherwise have been flown by an IPA member that wasn't flown by displacement, for proficiency, or MEF? " (You DO realize that the Agreement provides for and permits management flying, right? )
See what they say.
The fact is that we have a clear Scope agreement that, if ENFORCED, would take care of the "problem". (If such problem really exists...)
The fact is that the union does not get to dictate to the company as to their management hiring practices, or their management structure. The IPA's job is to enforce our agreement, not play politics.
This is about politics, folks. You are being played.
Our Scope is clear. If management is flying trips that is not permitted under our Agreement, and if by doing so IPA members are harmed, then it should be enforced. By not enforcing Scope than we are stipulating that there isn't an issue with regard to management flying trips that should be flown by IPA members.
If managers want to organize, it is up to them to do so. They are free to petition the NMB for certification. They don't need our help.
Think long and hard before giving up seniority. You may regret it someday.
Article 1, C. (2):
It is agreed that all present and future domestic flying on
aircraft with a payload weight of more than 12,899 lbs. [19,000
lbs. for international flights] including but not limited to, revenue
flying, ferry flights, charters, training flights, test flights, or other
utilization of Company owned or leased aircraft in and for the
service of the Company, or any affiliate of the Company, shall
be performed by crewmembers on the United Parcel Service
Crewmember Seniority List in accordance with the terms and
conditions of this Agreement or any other applicable agreement
between the Company and the Association, except as
otherwise provided in this Agreement.
Then, give the IPA a call and ask the following question:
"Over the last 12 months, how many flight segments did management fly that would otherwise have been flown by an IPA member that wasn't flown by displacement, for proficiency, or MEF? " (You DO realize that the Agreement provides for and permits management flying, right? )
See what they say.
The fact is that we have a clear Scope agreement that, if ENFORCED, would take care of the "problem". (If such problem really exists...)
The fact is that the union does not get to dictate to the company as to their management hiring practices, or their management structure. The IPA's job is to enforce our agreement, not play politics.
This is about politics, folks. You are being played.
Our Scope is clear. If management is flying trips that is not permitted under our Agreement, and if by doing so IPA members are harmed, then it should be enforced. By not enforcing Scope than we are stipulating that there isn't an issue with regard to management flying trips that should be flown by IPA members.
If managers want to organize, it is up to them to do so. They are free to petition the NMB for certification. They don't need our help.
Think long and hard before giving up seniority. You may regret it someday.
07-23-2009 | 04:24 AM
#93
Freightmama!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,880
Likes: 0
From: 757/767 FO
[QUOTE=767pilot;649341]Yeah, but don't they have to want to get on the list first or is there some way to get them on without them actually wanting it? I've never heard of the latter.
07-23-2009 | 05:29 AM
#94
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Scope is the most important part of our Agreement.
Enforce it or lose it.
07-23-2009 | 05:33 AM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
notadog,
You highlighted it, but need to reread the rest of the collective bargaining agreement. "except as otherwise provided in this Agreement." is all the supervisors are doing. Very little Scope violation. Our CBA gives UPS plenty of flying in many other Articles.
MEF alone is a killer to IPA jobs and it falls under the "except as
otherwise provided in this Agreement" That's not politics. That is a legal document.
The politics is allowing the "except as otherwise provided in this Agreement." to persists after so many CBA's, but then the majority of the IPA ratified them.
You highlighted it, but need to reread the rest of the collective bargaining agreement. "except as otherwise provided in this Agreement." is all the supervisors are doing. Very little Scope violation. Our CBA gives UPS plenty of flying in many other Articles.
MEF alone is a killer to IPA jobs and it falls under the "except as
otherwise provided in this Agreement" That's not politics. That is a legal document.
The politics is allowing the "except as otherwise provided in this Agreement." to persists after so many CBA's, but then the majority of the IPA ratified them.
Before we permit managers to join or ranks, the IPA must define the limits of Scope.
I will never vote in favor of them joining until the IPA does so.
07-23-2009 | 05:38 AM
#96
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
From: I was acquired, Not Hired
First Airline ?
07-23-2009 | 07:43 AM
#98
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 679
Likes: 0
From: 757 Capt
poser
I think upsmistake is a poser or management plant. If anyone should be used to long periods away from home, it's a P3 guy (I should know!). The timing of the whine fest (coupled with the new fqm initiative) is just too convenient.
JMO
Pilot7576
JMO
Pilot7576
07-23-2009 | 08:50 AM
#99
Banned
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 540
Likes: 0
His absence of late is notable...
It's interesting to see who posts what here vice on the IPA forum. This site allows ALOT of anonymity without liability.
UPSmistake may have posted here in a moment of stress or frustration as he looked back at decisions he made. Life is like flying, make the best decision you can with the information you have at the time needed and press on. Always be ready to modify the decision / plan as you go.
Attitude is essential. One of my first flight instructors spent 6.5 years living in a Hilton. In Hanoi. During the late 60's to early 70's. After speaking with him at length it became obvious that what kept him and the rest of those guys from going insane was attitude (my little narrow perspective or take). Lots of solitary confinement, beatings, malnourishment, abuse (sound familiar..). Over all a Great guy, Rock of Gibraltar type.
UPSmistake I left UAL after ten years to go to UPS. Yes, it's different than flying for a pax carrier, or any other airline it seems. You will have to ask yourself what's the most important part (family, work, flying?) and how much time you give each portion. Once you figure out the formula your path and it's options will become much clearer. It may require you leave UPS for the short or long term, or move your family closer to where you can spend the majority of your time with them. Or it may require you to change the formula.
I get to see my family more now but will have to do 60 days a year getting shot at in Iraq in an airplane with no weapons on it (can't shoot back). Everyone has to make sacrifices to get what they want.
Good luck
Biff
It's interesting to see who posts what here vice on the IPA forum. This site allows ALOT of anonymity without liability.
UPSmistake may have posted here in a moment of stress or frustration as he looked back at decisions he made. Life is like flying, make the best decision you can with the information you have at the time needed and press on. Always be ready to modify the decision / plan as you go.
Attitude is essential. One of my first flight instructors spent 6.5 years living in a Hilton. In Hanoi. During the late 60's to early 70's. After speaking with him at length it became obvious that what kept him and the rest of those guys from going insane was attitude (my little narrow perspective or take). Lots of solitary confinement, beatings, malnourishment, abuse (sound familiar..). Over all a Great guy, Rock of Gibraltar type.
UPSmistake I left UAL after ten years to go to UPS. Yes, it's different than flying for a pax carrier, or any other airline it seems. You will have to ask yourself what's the most important part (family, work, flying?) and how much time you give each portion. Once you figure out the formula your path and it's options will become much clearer. It may require you leave UPS for the short or long term, or move your family closer to where you can spend the majority of your time with them. Or it may require you to change the formula.
I get to see my family more now but will have to do 60 days a year getting shot at in Iraq in an airplane with no weapons on it (can't shoot back). Everyone has to make sacrifices to get what they want.
Good luck
Biff
Last edited by bifff15; 07-23-2009 at 10:39 AM.
07-23-2009 | 09:50 AM
#100
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
From: Serving the chicken and taking the first break.
Anc sucks? Thats like you're opinion man.
Last edited by Xtwinbeechguy; 07-23-2009 at 11:04 AM.
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