Crewbus Rumors
02-05-2010, 04:13 PM
#122
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Bent Over
Posts: 531
The way I understand it, the contract said no training out of seniority order(this is just for the seat and aircraft you are going to, not by base or aircraft/seat coming from). It also said no passover pay due to excess. The grievance settlement allowed training out of order so and passover pay would be payed based on the difference between when someone would have gone to training in seniority order and when they actually went. Usually it has only amounted to a few weeks of passover. Personally I would have rather held the company to the seniority order clause.
02-05-2010, 06:35 PM
#123
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: B777 FO FDX, C130 ANG
Posts: 538
The way I understand it, the contract said no training out of seniority order(this is just for the seat and aircraft you are going to, not by base or aircraft/seat coming from). It also said no passover pay due to excess. The grievance settlement allowed training out of order so and passover pay would be payed based on the difference between when someone would have gone to training in seniority order and when they actually went. Usually it has only amounted to a few weeks of passover. Personally I would have rather held the company to the seniority order clause.
02-06-2010, 02:53 AM
#125
Trust but Verify!!
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: MD11 CRA
Posts: 684
I agree that the company knew HKG would be filled with everyone heading backwards, but that was not the root cause of the excess IMO just a nice benefit for the company. The current economic disaster and the uncertain future economy was the main reason for the excess bid and now they are realizing that it was to much and want their cake and want to eat it too (gorge on it with 4a2b).
The company canceling an awarded bid for the first time in it's history after the Age Change, then running excess bids off the back of the 727 and the 10 to allow over 60 S/O's to bid back to the front seats on every airplane creating instant surpluses in the most expensive seats for them was the real culprit here. The economy played a small part but my guess is had that bid been allowed to stand and those over 60's forced to wait for a real vacancy bid to move the damage would have been much less than we have seen with far fewer pilots displaced. From a purely financial point of view it still makes no sense at all. Maybe they used to excess to try and fill HKG, or as an excuse for 4a2b and some bean-counter somewhere could justify it, I don't know. Just wanted to chime in though that the economy is playing a smaller factor here in regards to excess bids and 4a2b than staffing decisions by management that put them in a position where excesses may have been required. Not ND bashing here, but we need to focus on the fact that 4a2b is being unfairly implemented by management to try and make up for their poor staffing planning, not because the economy requires it. We need to really keep this in mind as we approach contract talks with them this year.
02-06-2010, 04:29 AM
#126
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Bent Over
Posts: 531
Seniority order to me means in order of being hired as a line pilot at FedEx period dot (not dependent on what seat your going to). The company went to many lengths and took a year between the first canceled excess bid and the current one to make a plan for this (they scrubbed the language better than we did). In order to make it cost effective to implement it they took every liberty imaginable to them with our contract and pulled the trigger. Now we are left to defend the language after the fact. This is a terrible tragedy to our pilot group IMO and we should not be rolling over and agreeing to things that make it easier for the company to implement this retraction. Who knows but if they weren't able to train out of seniority the excess may not have even happened or maybe not been as large as it was.
The contract is pretty clear that it's seniority order by seat/aircraft going to, not base coming from. It was the seniority order that was disputed.
02-06-2010, 06:35 AM
#127
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,931
The company canceling an awarded bid for the first time in it's history after the Age Change, then running excess bids off the back of the 727 and the 10 to allow over 60 S/O's to bid back to the front seats on every airplane creating instant surpluses in the most expensive seats for them was the real culprit here.
Did DW get a BZ for his instrumental role in making this happen? Since he couldn't secure the 777 pay rates as a reward he should have at least gotten a BZ.
How 'bout a little something for the effort?
02-06-2010, 07:03 AM
#128
Trust but Verify!!
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: MD11 CRA
Posts: 684
Originally Posted by R1200RT View Post
Best thing about the 777 is all the support the union members give to support the negotiating team. DW is now a 777 Captain. Congrats to him and thanks for the support.
So what your saying is DW pushed for the Age 60 change against his members will, then pushed even harder for Retro which was even more against his members will, (both of which are largely responsible for guys possibly being furloughed and the need for this excess bid), and now is taking advantage of the excess bid caused by his pushing for the above changes to bid the 777 (which he has inside information on about what is being negotiated that we do not) and previously he advised us to be cautious bidding a plane with no pay rate or work rules yet? And you have a problem with this why? (Insert sarcasm smiley here) It's good to be the King I guess!!! Any bets on whether or not he retires at age 60? We all know he has his high 5 taken care of already!!
Well at least he didn't threaten to sue the MEC over any of this!!! DOH!!
02-06-2010, 07:44 PM
#129
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,193
I agree that the company knew HKG would be filled with everyone heading backwards, but that was not the root cause of the excess IMO just a nice benefit for the company. The current economic disaster and the uncertain future economy was the main reason for the excess bid and now they are realizing that it was to much and want their cake and want to eat it too (gorge on it with 4a2b). Show me where it is written that the union has a agreed to allow out of seniority training as it refers to the excess bid. The FDA LOA has nothing contractually to do with the excess bid and if it is being portrayed that way by the union then the union leadership is overstepping its authority. The contract that I have says excessed Pilots will be trained in reverse seniority order period; not according to what plane they are going to, not according to what seat, not according to what backdoor deal someone has made with someone else...
That sentence in the contract is so plainly clear how would we allow it to be convoluted to mean something else than what is so plainly written. We let the company add about a million things to the 4a2b language, but now this too.
That sentence in the contract is so plainly clear how would we allow it to be convoluted to mean something else than what is so plainly written. We let the company add about a million things to the 4a2b language, but now this too.
"Paragraph B. "The Best of All Possible Order List"
After the close of an applicable posting, pilots who received a crew position through either a vacancy bid, bid to relieve the excess, or involuntary excess shall be pooled together in the crew position to which they are going (the BAPO list)"
While this appears to allow the more senior ANC excessed FOs to start training in the 727/FO seat prior to the junior ANC excessed FOs training in the 727/SO seat, it does not (IMHO) allow the even more junior 757 or 727 Flexs who have also been excessed to the SO seat to go to the bottom of the 727/SO training letter and retain narrowbody FO pay.
Last edited by DLax85; 02-06-2010 at 07:46 PM. Reason: added verbiage
02-07-2010, 01:10 AM
#130
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Bent Over
Posts: 531
Check out "Settle Agreement Regarding The Training Order in Postings Involving An Excess", signed 14 May 2009 by our Grievance Chair and the Company's Managing Director for Labor Relations --- it's posted on the ALPA website --- only 1 1/2 pages long -- quick read.
"Paragraph B. "The Best of All Possible Order List"
After the close of an applicable posting, pilots who received a crew position through either a vacancy bid, bid to relieve the excess, or involuntary excess shall be pooled together in the crew position to which they are going (the BAPO list)"
While this appears to allow the more senior ANC excessed FOs to start training in the 727/FO seat prior to the junior ANC excessed FOs training in the 727/SO seat, it does not (IMHO) allow the even more junior 757 or 727 Flexs who have also been excessed to the SO seat to go to the bottom of the 727/SO training letter and retain narrowbody FO pay.
"Paragraph B. "The Best of All Possible Order List"
After the close of an applicable posting, pilots who received a crew position through either a vacancy bid, bid to relieve the excess, or involuntary excess shall be pooled together in the crew position to which they are going (the BAPO list)"
While this appears to allow the more senior ANC excessed FOs to start training in the 727/FO seat prior to the junior ANC excessed FOs training in the 727/SO seat, it does not (IMHO) allow the even more junior 757 or 727 Flexs who have also been excessed to the SO seat to go to the bottom of the 727/SO training letter and retain narrowbody FO pay.
My understanding is they don't, their pay should revert to SO pay on the day it is estimated they would return to the line based on the BAPO list. However, I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't happening.
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