Correct. At ABX, consistent with what Kougarok notes, there is a group of aircraft that are DHL-owned or DHL-dry-leased. And there is a group of aircraft that, while they are painted in DHL colors and used by ABX primarily on DHL routes, aren't actually owned by DHL. So you can see those tails flying really on any route of ABX's, even though they wear the DHL livery. ABX has the flexibility to use those in a way that Atlas and ATI (and ABX) do not have with the aircraft that are actually dry-leased to Amazon. It's like the two Sonair-owned 747s that Atlas flies for Sonair on the Houston Express. Sonair will occasionally give Atlas permission to use them on certain specific charters (think NFL). But at least when World had the contract (for a dedicated VIP MD11), Sonair was super-extroardinarily-pain-in-the-tuckus persnickety about what groups would be allowed to charter their aircraft, and hyper-alert for any damage to the interior arising from such a group's use. I assume that they're pretty-much the same way with Atlas.

Your assumption is correct. Heck, it took two or three years of flying those aircraft before Atlas was able to talk Sonair into picking up ANY other contracts. Atlas said, "we have the industry contacts to get these aircraft flying, and hey look you have one spare sitting doing nothing." Sonair's answer: "That spare is a spare... we won't use it for anything other than that."

A couple of lucrative charter trips broke that ice. Now the relationship is a little more flexible when it comes to pursuing flying that will be mutually beneficial.

You guys seem to know a lot of useless info about how companies utilize and shuffle their aircraft to generate revenue. Any ideas on how to get these same dirt bag operators to pay their pilots industry standard?

Great response. I have a suggestion. It’s proved to get management fired in the past.

First, define "industry standard".

All jobs depend upon two factors, supply and demand. And this is what sets the pay for these jobs. If you have pilots who are willing to work for these wages that satisfies the supply portion for the company, hence no need to raise wages when the resources are available.

Start reducing the supply, pilots not applying and pilots leaving for better paying jobs, then the demand kicks in to increase wages to counter the diminishing supply.

However, in the history of US air carriers this simple concept is still hard for many to comprehend.

Uh, yeah, because the unions and companies long ago cemented loyal pilot groups that won't leave: it's called company seniority.

No need to define it. The work has already been done. Multiple pilot unions have published Contract Comparisons for the last few years now. When you take emotion and opinion out of the equations, the standards speak for themselves when they are plotted out in chart form. Now, getting pilots who all think they know more than the next guy to actually look at these charts, let alone study them, well, that is another challenge altogether.

Ha! I remember when you were just whippersnapper... now you sound like a grizzled veteran.

Keep up the good work, buddy. And Happy New Year!

Thanks and Happy New Year to you too! :)

You might want to reserve your kudos until you see what we have been paying them for in the form of a cba or an arbitrated settlement crammed down our throats. You might find them blaming the crew force for the contract we get despite all the efforts/risk made by us resulting in the recent court injunction.

Keep in mind, they have no professional negotiators working for us despite their availability to us from international.

**** just stop, everyone has been able to see through your lies and misinformation for some time now.

Originally Posted by suddenimpact View Post
You might want to reserve your kudos until you see what we have been paying them for in the form of a cba or an arbitrated settlement crammed down our throats. You might find them blaming the crew force for the contract we get despite all the efforts/risk made by us resulting in the recent court injunction.

Keep in mind, they have no professional negotiators working for us despite their availability to us from international."

Don't like hearing the truth? Must be "fake" news.

Amazon Prime Holiday Shipping 2017:
https://aircargoworld.com/allposts/a...lion-packages/

Amazon and FedEx in this one. A new aircraft:
https://aircargoworld.com/allposts/i...kycourier-408/

Amazon hiring Seattle:
https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/...pace-jobs.html

Namaste...

From the article:

"News of the hires comes amid reports that Amazon is soon planning to offer air cargo services to its clients in China."

Interesting.

And from this article:

"Amazon.com’s successful holiday season is all the more notable, considering that pilots flying for it’s Prime Air service had warned that, 'years of substandard pay and working conditions have led many veteran pilots to leave these airlines for better jobs, creating serious problems for these companies as they ramp up their business with Amazon.'

However, according to the e-tailing giant, no evidence of such a labor shortage had been reported."


Nice job 1224, ugh. Actions speak louder than words, and Amazon's hugely successful season speaks louder than our threatening messages. And now our messages will forever sound hollow to the public.

So management is lying to customers (I mean, are you really shocked?), and you are blaming the 1224? They speak the truth. Flight ops at Atlas are struggling to cover flights, and attrition is a huge problem. At the end of the day, all the flights still get covered even if its messy business sometimes. It would take aircraft not moving and Amazon having to explain to people why it didn’t make good on their 2 day shipping on a consistent basis for either company to harm their stock price by admitting there is a problem.

Different paint on the tail is one thing, try flying using some one else’s call sign and abiding by their op-specs!

How is management lying to customers? Amazon says they don't see any evidence of a labor shortage... because, using your words, "at the end of the day, all the flights still get covered". What other definition is there of a labor shortage (from the customer's point of view)?

I'm not saying 1224 didn't speak the truth; they (we) absolutely did. My question is: what's the point? Picketing is supposed to drive down a stock price (it went up), scare customers away (Prime customers increased by 500%), and overall hurt the company (it didn't, neither AAWH or Amazon).

It's one thing to picket saying "we want a bigger piece of the pie!" That's just basic awareness, getting our story out there. The company gets harmed by our actions hopefully, or maybe they don't. Either way, we are furthering our cause, and the message is clear: we just want our part.

But no. 1224 went right for the jugular. We picketed the customer (for the first time ever?). And our message wasn't "we want a bigger piece of the pie!", it was "your business results and performance will suffer by using our company!"

That was our strategy. "Can Amazon deliver?" Picketing events, billboards, a website, a high-production value video... all of these things cost a lot of money, and all asked the consumer and the customer to consider the same question: Can Amazon deliver?

It makes us look like fools when Amazon delivers resoundingly well. Historically well.

I FULLY support a picketing/marketing campaign that says "we deserve a bigger piece of the pie!" I FULLY support the solidarity of our pilot group, in my words and my actions. I just think that the message that we spent so much of our money on was misguided.

WTF is your problem with him? It really is creepy. We all know what we've been paying - about 2% for general representation and contract negotiations. Those are combined numbers and very reasonable considering how expensive lawyers and pilots cost.

As for you... You're the absolute worst sort of hypocrite. You've ran your mouth about all these conspiracies with regard to our current leadership for months now. You have a base that would've voted for you had you not been too lazy to run for ExCo yourself. Furthermore, I'm assuming you'd have done the job for free since you that's what you expect of others. Since you don't even care about our Union enough to fix the problems you see then you'd do better to shut your moronic mouth and enjoy the ride. Contrary to how you view yourself we have zero use for people who do nothing but complain about situations they refuse to fix.

100% Invested (since we're not going to be allowed to say "All In" 6 months from now)!!!

Looking at how things went down it appeared as if they prioritized Amazon and DHL for peak. Rest assured customers such as Panalpina and AMC are probably not too happy with the performance they got this fall.

JB, I see what you’re saying. At the end of the day, i don’t think it matters even IF there are performance problems, because public opinion is always in favor of the company and never the unions (especially with a company like Amazon).

You're technically correct when you take a snapshot on any given day during the LAST 4th Quarter.

But your synopsis really misses the bigger picture and in fact misses the most important part of the ("informational") picketing message.

Let me fill in the blank: And our message wasn't "we want a bigger piece of the pie!", it was "your business results and performance will suffer by using our company!" BECAUSE, as we have been saying for the past year, the pool of experienced pilots in the job market is drying up as record retirements ramp up to peak sometime around 2023. On top of that, improved working conditions and expansion at other airlines are making it increasingly difficult to retain experienced pilots. Atlas mismanagement is putting the whole operation at risk, not just Amazon and DHL.

So, actually "we want a bigger piece of the pie" is implied when we make references to the FACT that we are compensated 40% lower than current industry standard.

This describes for you exactly how management is in fact lying (lied) to Amazon about what they can provide for them over the WHOLE TERM of their contract.

It's one thing to acquire the physical hardware (20 767s) which does appear to be on track. And yeah, it's true Atlas did shed customers in order to hunker down into a defensive posture to protect Amazon and DHL in 2017 Q4.

But it's not fair to take a snippet of a picketing slogan from one event and then draw a broad, sweeping generalization about union strategy.

One thing leads to another and this is a PROCESS. It started Jan 19, 2016. And it didn't by any stretch of the imagination finish on Dec 24th, 2017.

Lastly, ("informational") picketing is not meant "to drive down a stock price, scare customers away, and overall hurt the company." Those would be the few consequences of a full blown strike.

The objective of the picket, as you alluded to, is to deliver a MESSAGE. In this case, to expose the lies and mismanagement of a very highly visible contract. But in order to be fair, the message really needs to be discussed in the whole context of the seven year Amazon contract.

So.
Can Amazon Deliver? | The Truth About Prime Air is quite apropos.

>60% less.

Very little AMC 767 flying the last couple months

The performance with the 747 was terrible. When things started going south you could see the Polar airplanes were the last to fall behind on the 747. The AMC stuff and Panalpina ran behind for months. It looks to me like they still can't keep up.

I think those customers simply have nowhere else to go, so if we run late, I'd imagine we're still doing better than a C-17 or C-5.

Ahahaha. Did the Amazon Vice President of Whatever just post a flight sim render on his twitter?

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/new...ub/1030088001/

"Unlike the previous agreement, which is a long-term lease on land owned by CVG, the latest 210-acre transaction is a direct purchase, which Moore said demonstrates the online retailer’s commitment to the project.
...
Amazon has more workers (10,000 people in full-time jobs across 11 fulfillment center locations) employed in Kentucky than in any other U.S. state, except Washington, where it is headquartered."

http://www.nkytribune.com/2018/01/am...ir-operations/

Namaste...

http://sk.uploads.im/t/b00Gs.png

In the image above, the bit outlined in red is the latest buy from Amazon. This gives Amazon direct access to KY RT18 which is a major east west artery in northern KY. It also ties it in nicely with the parcel C leased from CVG Airport Authority which is directly across from the DHL hub.

And major access to my crashpad. [emoji23] Creating a road access point off the parkway will save me 5 mins on my commute. This is a real win-win.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ah dont mean nottin

They had over 160 rampers no show them this weekend. They are saying its NOT a job action.

The winter storm that dumped snow on northern Kentucky is probably the cause of ramp no shows.

"we are compensated 40% lower than current industry standard."

Why would you take a job that pays 40% less than industry standard? I'm guessing it's because no one else would hire you. I understand your desire for more pay, but this kind of reminds me of the girl who marries a dude with severe flaws but thinks "well, I'll just have to change him after we're married". I wish you well with your effort to increase your pay. The market forces should help you. But to complain about your pay when no one put a gun to your head to take the job seems a bit incredulous.

Perhaps you should ask some of the guys that took jobs with Fred in the early years. Somebody had to put the time in to get wages to what they are today.

Thanks for the support. I guess the flip side of this argument is that we could all just accept what we currently have since that is all we had when we got hired. Amazon can continue to exploit our cheap labor as they grow, gain market share and put your company out of business. Would that be better?

1990 UPS. Top CA pay 80K, FO 40K, no retirement, FAR contract. 50% or less of Majors and FedEx at that time.

A not uncommon way for UPS Managers to learn somebody had quit was to find their UPS issued kitbag with manuals left in the Flight Ops hallway in the morning. Many quit without having another job lined up.

Kinda arrogant a bit aren't ya pal? :rolleyes:

The reality is Amazon will start their own airline eventually. Who knows which airline the pilots will come from....

But me, me hey choose me!

Something I've always said, Atlas leased several 747s to Emirates for many years getting their freight operation spooled up. Eventually, Emirates got their own 777s and gave Atlas the boot.

I see the same thing happening at Amazon. They'll lease a fleet of 767s until they can sustain their own operation, then Atlas gets the boot again.

Amazon leases run until 2023. Amazon has exercised ZERO warrants. But they dropped $13.8 BILLION on Whole Foods outta the clear blue sky, but not a DIME on Atlas.

You're right and I apologize for that. I didn't use any tact. I guess what I meant to say is that he'd prolly taken another job if it paid 40% more. I could be wrong.