BigBus,

Nobody will be stuck as an FO indefinitely, unless a particular FO does not have the experience or performance to upgrade (you need both). We always try to upgrade in seniority order, but some FOs just are not ready yet. Putting them up for upgrade before they are ready knowing they will probably fail is not helpful for them or anyone else. When they are ready, they will upgrade. If there are not enough who are ready to go, they'll put in street captains.

 

I'm not against merit-based upgrades (In fact, I support it assuming it's based solely on performance), but street captains do hinder our career progression as FOs. For every street captain on property, there's one less seat to upgrade into in the future. That needs to go away, and thankfully it looks like it will with the new contract.

And before anyone thinks I'm an FO who's simply bitter about having been passed up, I'm not; I'm not yet eligible based on my time with the company. I simply see upgrade getting further and further away with each street captain who shows up to class. I don't hold any ill will toward those captains, but it's a serious issue for FOs like myself.

One thing I want to say is this: Every other non-sked charter airline has seniority-based upgrades, and they have just as good a safety record as Omni does. I say put the responsibility on the individual pilot to determine whether he or she is ready to bid for the left seat. If they fail, it's on them. They can go back to the right seat for a while and try again in the future. I think that's more than fair.

 

NightIP,

I understand what you are saying, and understand that the other carriers have seniority based upgrades with good safety records.

But, you must consider one fact. Once Omni goes to a seniority based upgrade they will no longer be able to hire anyone with low time or without experience in large airplanes, because the upgrade time is so short. Seniority would put a newhire in the left seat of a heavy airplane flying all over the planet in as little as a year, possibly less with current attrition. If that is the case, then the only people Omni would be able to hire safely will be pilots with a great deal of heavy jet time. Not more will RJ pilots or low-time pilots be able to get hired, as they would never be ready for the left seat of a heavy airplane in such a short time.

As it stands now, we can hire them, and upgrade them when they are ready. If you force straight seniority upgrades, we'd have to turn away all of the low-time and almost all of the RJ pilots who might otherwise get hired.

And before someone comments about the fantastic skill level of RJ pilots, I agree that commuter pilots might have good stick-and-rudder skills. I too was most skilled at flying when I was at the commuters years ago. But that does not prepare you in any way for the left seat of a heavy jet. Only sitting in the FO seat of a heavy jet for a few years can offer the needed experience.

 

If there aren't any FOs who are eligible for upgrade under a seniority system, street captains may be needed in order to keep the airplanes flying. I see no problem with that. However, as it stands, we DO have FOs who are eligible, but are watching junior street captains show up instead of getting a shot. I say (as is the industry standard, which we all claim we want), let us FOs bid upgrade when we feel we're ready (and meet the minimum upgrade qualifications in the contract), and in seniority order. People still have to pass training and IOE, and it removes the potential for abuses in the merit system.

Like I said: We all say we want the industry standard; this is it.

 

I really don't see abuses in the merit system. FOs are constantly being evaluated at all times. The company gets feedback from everyone they fly with.

There is a big difference between being eligible for upgrade and being ready for upgrade. We don't want to put someone up who isn't ready. that sets a person up for failure, which isn't fair to anyone.

 

You've sparked my curiosity. Can you expand on what specifically about sitting left seat in a heavy jet is so challenging? Not trying to disagree with you. I have heard of a few guys with only regional experience who upgraded at Omni after only a year though.

 

Sometimes you don't know what you don't know. As long as one is flying domestically, not too much of a problem with proper training. But tossing a domestic only pilot out into the rest of the world, with all the different procedures not only through the NATs, but also procedures through Africa, S. Atlantic etc. It's just a learning process that takes a little seasoning. We see this all the time here at Emirates.

If your friends upgraded successfully then the training at Omni may be really good. Don't know. Or the pilots they flew with were really good at mentoring.

 

I had a nice long response typed out but my browser crashed, so here are the highlights.

The flying part is easy, its all the little things that come with flying around the world and there are ALOT of little things.
The commuters and the majors make it easy as things are pretty much canned and alot of hand holding is done or things are done in the background and you just flat out never see the process.
In the supplementals, there is no hand holding and you are basically on your own. That can be good and bad at the same time.
You go to places you've never been, much less heard of and are expected (by ops) to know exactly where to go and what to do and do it in pigeon English and and don't screw up in the process.
I have seen Capts from the majors come to the Supps and get their rear-end handed to them because of the philosophy difference in operations.

In short, flying the Supps is a completely different world.

 

Yeah why hire pilots who would actully expect to paid industry standard wages.

 

Alright, we get it... Quit trolling...

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ch...tml#post971446

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...tml#post855074

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...tml#post855071

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...tml#post848194

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...tml#post848035

Lots of knocking the pay, but never a good word about our negotiators who are currently working very hard to change that. I'm not sure who you work for, but these things don't happen overnight.