The other Atlas thread
09-23-2014, 10:34 AM
#261
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: What day is it?
Posts: 963
Originally Posted by thesandbox
Sorry....the reason a lot of the "newer folks" do say something is because of the fact that they have been at other places, (except perhaps the military folks but this is not an attack on them), for many years. We are quite familiar with the RLA and NMB, and have gone through "more than one" negotiated contract, which would actually put the more senior guys here in the "lack of knowledge" category if you would like to go that route since everyone says this was our first contract and not even negotiated per the norm. Many of us do come from other ACMI carriers so the argument that we are different and have different customers falls on deaf ears especially when we had a better contract that was even negotiated by an association that despises ACMI carriers. Now why could this have all taken place....it sure as heck was not due to a lack of understanding of the RLA, NMB, industry, choice of union, customers, etc... IT WAS DUE TO A STRONG SOLID GROUP OF PILOTS THAT WERE BEHIND WHAT THE GROUP AS A WHOLE KNEW THEY DESERVED. And yes, I have taken a strike vote as well and mine was a "yes". To be treated like human beings and not slaves. Yes, a company needs to realize they need to be willing to give up a bit of profit in order to treat its profit earners with some dignity that will actually produce more profit in the end. We will feel more invigorated to keep the company and the customer happy because we know they respect what we do and understand the toll our current situation takes on ours and our families lives.
Your comment about “first contract” is also incorrect. Both carriers had first contracts before the current JCBA. Both negotiated and to a certain extent crammed down by ALPA. The Atlas contract was the result of a failed first TA that ALPA tried to then cram back down with minor changes. Atlas pilots were told in word and letter by the then Polar MEC Chairman that if they accepted it, they would forever be branded as “industry scabs.” The CBA was revised with the help if the NMB when they found out ALPA had meddled and threatened the new MEC, when they told the new MEC that they would withdraw all financial support if they tried to fix it beyond just enough to get 50% plus 1. The new MEC went to the NMB, made the case and got the full support of the NMB and made ALPA back off. From the day that CBA was signed in 2001 until the JCBA, the MEC and negotiators were in constant discussions and continued to get improvements on the CBA. The track record is there.
Polar was given the same amount of money by the company and told to divide it however they wanted in their CBA. Smaller group, same money. Their Chairman opted to push in another direction, convinced he could force a sale and that a now 5 airplane, scheduled carrier would be the darling of the industry in a time when they were hauling more sailboat fuel than cargo. The events that followed are public record and not worth revisiting right now. Suffice to say if ALPA had honored their promise in 2007 and made the parties, (both MEC’s) sit down and negotiate a JCBA in 2007 when the economy was booming in ACMI, we would today be prepping for the second common CBA. Prater chose not to because of personal reasons and one MEC Chairman refused to do anything that would make him wear an Atlas uniform. Again, old history.
So, this group of “more senior guys” has more CBA experience than you assume. You speak of your previous “better” CBA’s with your previous carriers. This leads to a couple of common sense questions. First, if they were better, why come to Atlas where you lament the situation? Second, where is that carrier right now? I’m assuming you and others didn’t come here out of a sense of altruism, so there must have been a problem at those other ACMI carriers.
No one has ever argued that we as pilots deserve less. A good friend who was an MEC Chairman at a legacy told his pilots, “I can get you $300 an hour in the CBA. But that will last for a few months until they can’t afford it.”
Anyone who really watches this industry post deregulation can see a ten year cycle. The first four years or so of a decade; pilots make gains. The next four, the carriers see declines in profits and the last two are a fight over concessions and bankruptcy. What this group started doing during the Atlas bankruptcy was to see the cycle and look at how to dampen the curve so the down years didn’t happen or they were minimized. Meaning less chance of furloughs that destroy families, lives and long term income. Put another way; you always leave the money in the bucket alone, because when you force the company to get into the bucket, eventually the bucket runs dry. Get the money blowing off the top and headed to the floor and you’ll always have something to build on.
As to the effect on families and such. A long time ago, Michael became famous (or infamous) for saying, “this is the life you have chosen.” No different than “will autoland for food,” each rubbed a bit. That said, this IS the airline you chose. No one forced you to come to Atlas. You knew the drill long before you got here and if you didn’t, everyone from these boards to the interviews to class and IOE made it crystal clear. The fact that your previous carrier isn’t around is because they couldn’t find a way to operate in the ACMI world like Atlas does. The fact that the company operates for its’ shareholders and customers is no different than any other carrier, ACMI or scheduled, passenger or freight.
Can changes be made in the next CBA? Sure. Will we get what we demand? That depends on if the demands are realistic or ridiculous. In the end, both sides need to be able to live with what is agreed to.
Can the pilots strike? Given the full run of the NMB process…maybe. As long as it’s not within 2 years of an election. A release is never guaranteed. Are you willing to wait 3-4 years past the ammendable date for a maybe?
One thing is certain. Because of ALPA’s complete legal capitulation on defining an airport as a struck property, the demise of the CAB that severely diminished the leverage of a strike and the fact that the world has plenty of other carriers out there unlike the days of old, the days of chest beating are long gone unless you have support across classes and crafts. Not something you will ever find at ALPA, where they smile, say “good luck” and press on…until they get tired of paying a strike assessment. Just ask an Eastern pilot about how ALPA had to “cut loose the burning lifeboats.’
And Atlas? They have an option that exceeds the RLA that you don’t even want to think about.
Just ask one of those “more senior guys” about a place called STN.
09-23-2014, 01:53 PM
#262
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Front Row
Posts: 154
I know those were incorrect statements as I was being a bit sarcastic just to show how other statements are just as incorrect. I am here because I love this type of flying and my other carrier had owners who funneled hundreds of millions of dollars through various entities when it was a known fact that during the economic downturn we were the most profitable airline in the U.S. They decided they were done as they were starting to get caught with some of thier schemes and decided they wanted out. They filed bankruptcy papers to the tune of only around $57 million I believe with revenues of $300-400 million and the creditors attorneys have discovered they may have taken out will over $100 million in the last year alone. Greed of a few can, and will destroy that which is good for many. Oh....and I loved being based in the UK for the summers when I chose as we also had a great reciprocal agreements getting to fly for some European carriers and me and my wife enjoyed living for free in Glasgow for the UK holiday season but STN...yeah....wouldn't be my first choice, especially trying to commute...wow, what a bummer. We could go back and forth but I think you're mostly preaching to the choir here. Again my two real biggest gripes are that 17 days away a month is a couple too many and that our credit system is lacking, and maybe the $3.45/hr international per diem we had. Cheers
Last edited by thesandbox; 09-23-2014 at 02:13 PM.
09-23-2014, 03:13 PM
#263
O.T. Freight Dog
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Position: Former 747 Captain
Posts: 150
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
Your assertion about the “more senior guys here” is incorrect. Atlas was started by pilots from Pan Am, Eastern and TWA. They have experience with contracts, the RLA and NMB both CAB and post de-regulation in most cases before many here were even flying. Those carriers wrote the book about the things mentioned as lacking here. And yes, there is a military contingent who never had a contract until Atlas or Polar. Many of them have been here since the start as well and have been through organizing and contracts since 1999. They’ve schooled up pretty well.
Your comment about “first contract” is also incorrect. Both carriers had first contracts before the current JCBA. Both negotiated and to a certain extent crammed down by ALPA. The Atlas contract was the result of a failed first TA that ALPA tried to then cram back down with minor changes. Atlas pilots were told in word and letter by the then Polar MEC Chairman that if they accepted it, they would forever be branded as “industry scabs.” The CBA was revised with the help if the NMB when they found out ALPA had meddled and threatened the new MEC, when they told the new MEC that they would withdraw all financial support if they tried to fix it beyond just enough to get 50% plus 1. The new MEC went to the NMB, made the case and got the full support of the NMB and made ALPA back off. From the day that CBA was signed in 2001 until the JCBA, the MEC and negotiators were in constant discussions and continued to get improvements on the CBA. The track record is there.
Polar was given the same amount of money by the company and told to divide it however they wanted in their CBA. Smaller group, same money. Their Chairman opted to push in another direction, convinced he could force a sale and that a now 5 airplane, scheduled carrier would be the darling of the industry in a time when they were hauling more sailboat fuel than cargo. The events that followed are public record and not worth revisiting right now. Suffice to say if ALPA had honored their promise in 2007 and made the parties, (both MEC’s) sit down and negotiate a JCBA in 2007 when the economy was booming in ACMI, we would today be prepping for the second common CBA. Prater chose not to because of personal reasons and one MEC Chairman refused to do anything that would make him wear an Atlas uniform. Again, old history.
So, this group of “more senior guys” has more CBA experience than you assume. You speak of your previous “better” CBA’s with your previous carriers. This leads to a couple of common sense questions. First, if they were better, why come to Atlas where you lament the situation? Second, where is that carrier right now? I’m assuming you and others didn’t come here out of a sense of altruism, so there must have been a problem at those other ACMI carriers.
No one has ever argued that we as pilots deserve less. A good friend who was an MEC Chairman at a legacy told his pilots, “I can get you $300 an hour in the CBA. But that will last for a few months until they can’t afford it.”
Anyone who really watches this industry post deregulation can see a ten year cycle. The first four years or so of a decade; pilots make gains. The next four, the carriers see declines in profits and the last two are a fight over concessions and bankruptcy. What this group started doing during the Atlas bankruptcy was to see the cycle and look at how to dampen the curve so the down years didn’t happen or they were minimized. Meaning less chance of furloughs that destroy families, lives and long term income. Put another way; you always leave the money in the bucket alone, because when you force the company to get into the bucket, eventually the bucket runs dry. Get the money blowing off the top and headed to the floor and you’ll always have something to build on.
As to the effect on families and such. A long time ago, Michael became famous (or infamous) for saying, “this is the life you have chosen.” No different than “will autoland for food,” each rubbed a bit. That said, this IS the airline you chose. No one forced you to come to Atlas. You knew the drill long before you got here and if you didn’t, everyone from these boards to the interviews to class and IOE made it crystal clear. The fact that your previous carrier isn’t around is because they couldn’t find a way to operate in the ACMI world like Atlas does. The fact that the company operates for its’ shareholders and customers is no different than any other carrier, ACMI or scheduled, passenger or freight.
Can changes be made in the next CBA? Sure. Will we get what we demand? That depends on if the demands are realistic or ridiculous. In the end, both sides need to be able to live with what is agreed to.
Can the pilots strike? Given the full run of the NMB process…maybe. As long as it’s not within 2 years of an election. A release is never guaranteed. Are you willing to wait 3-4 years past the ammendable date for a maybe?
One thing is certain. Because of ALPA’s complete legal capitulation on defining an airport as a struck property, the demise of the CAB that severely diminished the leverage of a strike and the fact that the world has plenty of other carriers out there unlike the days of old, the days of chest beating are long gone unless you have support across classes and crafts. Not something you will ever find at ALPA, where they smile, say “good luck” and press on…until they get tired of paying a strike assessment. Just ask an Eastern pilot about how ALPA had to “cut loose the burning lifeboats.’
And Atlas? They have an option that exceeds the RLA that you don’t even want to think about.
Just ask one of those “more senior guys” about a place called STN.
Your comment about “first contract” is also incorrect. Both carriers had first contracts before the current JCBA. Both negotiated and to a certain extent crammed down by ALPA. The Atlas contract was the result of a failed first TA that ALPA tried to then cram back down with minor changes. Atlas pilots were told in word and letter by the then Polar MEC Chairman that if they accepted it, they would forever be branded as “industry scabs.” The CBA was revised with the help if the NMB when they found out ALPA had meddled and threatened the new MEC, when they told the new MEC that they would withdraw all financial support if they tried to fix it beyond just enough to get 50% plus 1. The new MEC went to the NMB, made the case and got the full support of the NMB and made ALPA back off. From the day that CBA was signed in 2001 until the JCBA, the MEC and negotiators were in constant discussions and continued to get improvements on the CBA. The track record is there.
Polar was given the same amount of money by the company and told to divide it however they wanted in their CBA. Smaller group, same money. Their Chairman opted to push in another direction, convinced he could force a sale and that a now 5 airplane, scheduled carrier would be the darling of the industry in a time when they were hauling more sailboat fuel than cargo. The events that followed are public record and not worth revisiting right now. Suffice to say if ALPA had honored their promise in 2007 and made the parties, (both MEC’s) sit down and negotiate a JCBA in 2007 when the economy was booming in ACMI, we would today be prepping for the second common CBA. Prater chose not to because of personal reasons and one MEC Chairman refused to do anything that would make him wear an Atlas uniform. Again, old history.
So, this group of “more senior guys” has more CBA experience than you assume. You speak of your previous “better” CBA’s with your previous carriers. This leads to a couple of common sense questions. First, if they were better, why come to Atlas where you lament the situation? Second, where is that carrier right now? I’m assuming you and others didn’t come here out of a sense of altruism, so there must have been a problem at those other ACMI carriers.
No one has ever argued that we as pilots deserve less. A good friend who was an MEC Chairman at a legacy told his pilots, “I can get you $300 an hour in the CBA. But that will last for a few months until they can’t afford it.”
Anyone who really watches this industry post deregulation can see a ten year cycle. The first four years or so of a decade; pilots make gains. The next four, the carriers see declines in profits and the last two are a fight over concessions and bankruptcy. What this group started doing during the Atlas bankruptcy was to see the cycle and look at how to dampen the curve so the down years didn’t happen or they were minimized. Meaning less chance of furloughs that destroy families, lives and long term income. Put another way; you always leave the money in the bucket alone, because when you force the company to get into the bucket, eventually the bucket runs dry. Get the money blowing off the top and headed to the floor and you’ll always have something to build on.
As to the effect on families and such. A long time ago, Michael became famous (or infamous) for saying, “this is the life you have chosen.” No different than “will autoland for food,” each rubbed a bit. That said, this IS the airline you chose. No one forced you to come to Atlas. You knew the drill long before you got here and if you didn’t, everyone from these boards to the interviews to class and IOE made it crystal clear. The fact that your previous carrier isn’t around is because they couldn’t find a way to operate in the ACMI world like Atlas does. The fact that the company operates for its’ shareholders and customers is no different than any other carrier, ACMI or scheduled, passenger or freight.
Can changes be made in the next CBA? Sure. Will we get what we demand? That depends on if the demands are realistic or ridiculous. In the end, both sides need to be able to live with what is agreed to.
Can the pilots strike? Given the full run of the NMB process…maybe. As long as it’s not within 2 years of an election. A release is never guaranteed. Are you willing to wait 3-4 years past the ammendable date for a maybe?
One thing is certain. Because of ALPA’s complete legal capitulation on defining an airport as a struck property, the demise of the CAB that severely diminished the leverage of a strike and the fact that the world has plenty of other carriers out there unlike the days of old, the days of chest beating are long gone unless you have support across classes and crafts. Not something you will ever find at ALPA, where they smile, say “good luck” and press on…until they get tired of paying a strike assessment. Just ask an Eastern pilot about how ALPA had to “cut loose the burning lifeboats.’
And Atlas? They have an option that exceeds the RLA that you don’t even want to think about.
Just ask one of those “more senior guys” about a place called STN.
FR8
09-23-2014, 03:42 PM
#264
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: What day is it?
Posts: 963
Originally Posted by thesandbox
I know those were incorrect statements as I was being a bit sarcastic just to show how other statements are just as incorrect. I am here because I love this type of flying and my other carrier had owners who funneled hundreds of millions of dollars through various entities when it was a known fact that during the economic downturn we were the most profitable airline in the U.S. They decided they were done as they were starting to get caught with some of thier schemes and decided they wanted out. They filed bankruptcy papers to the tune of only around $57 million I believe with revenues of $300-400 million and the creditors attorneys have discovered they may have taken out will over $100 million in the last year alone. Greed of a few can, and will destroy that which is good for many. Oh....and I loved being based in the UK for the summers when I chose as we also had a great reciprocal agreements getting to fly for some European carriers and me and my wife enjoyed living for free in Glasgow for the UK holiday season but STN...yeah....wouldn't be my first choice, especially trying to commute...wow, what a bummer. We could go back and forth but I think you're mostly preaching to the choir here. Again my two real biggest gripes are that 17 days away a month is a couple too many and that our credit system is lacking, and maybe the $3.45/hr international per diem we had. Cheers
09-23-2014, 09:32 PM
#266
Banned
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 109
Originally Posted by TimmyR
FWIW, every time I've emailed a committee or the Exco I've received a timely response and/or help (as needed), often from KM. I do not think this is what you are referring to, but it seemed to be a slightly broad statement. N=1
I've always got a quick reply to email or phone when calling the ExCo. KM usually leads the list on responders.
09-24-2014, 03:19 AM
#267
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 154
Originally Posted by suddenimpact
Was actually referring to Kirchner from a previous poster as to what has he done lately.
I've always got a quick reply to email or phone when calling the ExCo. KM usually leads the list on responders.
I've always got a quick reply to email or phone when calling the ExCo. KM usually leads the list on responders.
09-26-2014, 09:03 PM
#268
On Reserve
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 20
Originally Posted by suddenimpact
Was actually referring to Kirchner from a previous poster as to what has he done lately.
I've always got a quick reply to email or phone when calling the ExCo. KM usually leads the list on responders.
I've always got a quick reply to email or phone when calling the ExCo. KM usually leads the list on responders.
09-27-2014, 12:03 AM
#269
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: B767 CA
Posts: 1,100
Originally Posted by crapgame
i was curious on this. so looked into what has BK done for me. turns out that of all the people running for exco, he is the only one who signed off on the current POS cba. i notice on his web-site that he syas he singlehandedly saved us from ruin with much lower pay than we have now. i know that not to be true. <sigh> politics and liars. will someone please tell me the truth?
09-27-2014, 08:02 AM
#270
Banned
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 109
I know what you mean. Politics generates a lot of artistic license among some candidates.
Kind of like how Al Gore claimed to have invented the internet.
Since BK doesn't hold office other than grievance cleanup for the past Polar ones since the merger. Does he have anything to show for it yet now that we have a few years down the road after the merger? I thought most of those Polar ones were tossed because they were improperly filed outside the cutoff times?
New news. Looks like the 1224 President over 14 airlines has served one (JC) his ass to him on some interruption of the bylaw amendment process JC tried to interrupt. President Well's also to him to task over the NextGen slate of promises that violated a number of bylaws and gave warning. I'll have to try and find the link again.
How can these jokers (NextGen) be taken seriously if all they do is spout what they want to hear but have no way to know if they can implement it or if it is even legal to do so. They don't know what they are talking about. They can't even read their own bylaws to figure it out. This is a fine example of how the company will burn them and us collectively if they are elected. If they have not even read our own bylaws while running for office. I'm certain they have not caught up on the RLA and NMB let alone contract law.
Kind of like how Al Gore claimed to have invented the internet.
Since BK doesn't hold office other than grievance cleanup for the past Polar ones since the merger. Does he have anything to show for it yet now that we have a few years down the road after the merger? I thought most of those Polar ones were tossed because they were improperly filed outside the cutoff times?
New news. Looks like the 1224 President over 14 airlines has served one (JC) his ass to him on some interruption of the bylaw amendment process JC tried to interrupt. President Well's also to him to task over the NextGen slate of promises that violated a number of bylaws and gave warning. I'll have to try and find the link again.
How can these jokers (NextGen) be taken seriously if all they do is spout what they want to hear but have no way to know if they can implement it or if it is even legal to do so. They don't know what they are talking about. They can't even read their own bylaws to figure it out. This is a fine example of how the company will burn them and us collectively if they are elected. If they have not even read our own bylaws while running for office. I'm certain they have not caught up on the RLA and NMB let alone contract law.
Last edited by suddenimpact; 09-27-2014 at 08:25 AM.
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