Interesting, curious to see how low msp 717 actually went

yes I’m curious what “junior” means to my bud, but I feel there will be a lot of surprises on this bid from what BS had mentioned.

When the ER catagory started flying domestic flying in NYC back in ‘10-‘11, the answer to why do we have so many early departures and late arrivals, (i.e. uncommutable trips) the answer was all the O & D passengers. In other words, because a lot of passengers begin and end their travels there, by virtue of it being the biggest city in the U.S., we have a lot of trips starting and ending at the early and late hours. That’s what I was told.

LAX has the same problem. Lots of O&D traffic, on the edge of the country. Therefore, lots of early departures and late inbounds. Hence, a lot of poor commutability.

Why can’t those early departures be flown by guys laying over in hotels, who just have to shower and show up in the lobby as opposed to driving hours or commuting in on the own time and sleeping on their own dime?

I argued this very point to Bob Smeltzer. Why not have a larger pilot base of said aircraft in ATL, MSP or SEA (where people actually live). Have flights layover in NYC or LA, pay for the added hotel costs, but reduce sick calls and missed j/s’s—especially when weather messes up NYC, and decrease training costs (around $50k a type rating) associated with people jumping off equipment at the first opportunity (NYC 717 or MadDog back in the day). With this, you’d have pilots in place when IROPS occur, thus increasing reliability, while reducing (overall) cost metrics.

But alas, I’m just a pilot. Not management. What would I know?


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The NYC commutability thing has been addressed before. The most recent I remember had to do with non NYC pilots flying international trips. In other words “why is ATL flying JFK-XYZ?” CR presented a lot of data about commuters including the distance of their commute and how that affects the operation when there is weather etc.

Along those same lines and I honesty don’t remember if it was in print or the dude from scheduling who used to come down to the lounge for briefings, but the gist was that they did not want pilots trying to commute in to NYC for late morning departures. (At least a in large numbers)

Of course that doesn’t explain the trips that aren’t commutable on either end..

I have to believe a minimum day would be a barrier to improving NYC commutability. I'm not for or against it myself (I think there's good and bad, but I don't commute)...I just hope those who want a min calendar day are going in to that discussion with eyes wide open.

until they having a problem filling the slots in NYC it will always be this way. They truly wouldn’t care if the NYC Capt positions had to be filled in new hire classes as long as they get filled.

How detailed was your argument? I believe you said you were in management in a former life in another industry. You already know that in the corporate world you have to present a comprehensive Feasibility Report complete with data to analyticaly make your case. If you have the PowerPoint feel free to post the link. Thanks.

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So am I to understand when I am at a Delta townhall meeting I need a PowerPoint presentation to ask a question a thus receive a valid answer? I hope my sarcasm filter is malfunctioning. If not, this is a horrible precedent to set. We are treated like constituents of a congressional district, told just enough to ensure electability. Instead of mutual members in a massive ship where all ideas can benefit all. Good leaders listen and interact, they don’t require a 10 point plan. That’s their job to formulate after absorbing my ideas.

Anyone curious what personality types aspire to be 4th floor...exhibit A.

Don't know the details on this but this brings up some interesting questions. I'm pretty sure the 3 NYC airports are the most "avoided" airports known to PBS and as a RES I can confirm that it's a close race between Chicago and NYC for the most pilots who always seem to come down with optical anal disorder whenever I'm on call (guys always seem to trooper through those 34 hour CHOs though...). So if they made this change, the guys who are bypassing seniority to commute to NYC will now just pawn off their garbage on the surrounding bases basically giving them a double bump in seniority. Take this a step even further, if NYC becomes commutable at the expense of a significantly larger portion of NYC layovers in other bases, will NYC remain the mecca of junior opportunity that it is right now? Sure, it will still be junior due to all the other reasons everybody knows about -- but as an ATL guy I'd consider commuting up there if I knew I'd be able to reliably fly double commutable trips whereas in the current state it's not even on the RADAR, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

This discussion is not about asking questions. It's about arguing a significant change in crew basing to the Head of Crew Resources.

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I'm torn on this one. On the one hand at least Flight Ops seemed concerned when guys with 3 months at the company were awarded NYC 88a. On the other hand they don't seem to mind that we've got a pretty junior NYC 7era doing his best to eff up the company from the 4th floor AND he requires a babysitter whenever he decides to go fly.

In December there were 12 “commutable” trips on the 320 in NYC. Not 12%, but 12 actual trips. When I got the the 320 a couple years ago my seniority could hold 100% commutable. Now I'm just hoping for one end or the other. Also, if you read the Crew Resource news letter they have shifted their language from measuring fully commutable to front end or back end commutability. We no longer have 5 day trips with late sign in and early release. Instead for February we have some ridiculous amount of turns in NYC. And the 320 senior crew planner never writes a single comment in the Crew Resources news letter. All this seems to coincide with the sodomizer coming on line. The -88 was long gone before it happened so can’t use that excuse.

Seems every base wants more 1,2,3 day trips except nyc. There the desire is 5 or 4 day trips. Yet which base has the most short trips? I know I keep stirring the pot. They could post the AE results to get us back on topic!

Sorry—no power point. The costing data is proprietary, although ALPA is working with BS and training managers in order to see if changes to staffing can improve cost and reliability, without decreasing overall pilot staffing numbers (win-win).


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http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/meetings.pdf

When you spout off 4th-floor approved corporate speak, you have to be prepared for the counterpoints!

Sounds like they are going about it in an efficient way. Good to hear.

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Sounds like an excellent point to bring up at base visits starting February 3rd!

I am sure they will try to tell us how much the company loves us and how stupid our union leadership is with latest mediation development, but we got to steer them in the right direction of commutability and quality of life.

I wonder what “captain P-56” Gumm would have to say on the subject of “good leaders listen and interact”?
I hope to see sailing in the front row with a new lanyard on as well, if he is not in management :)

The catch is that to recover a hub you need reserves in the hub. Delta has been bit bad by flying non NY based aircraft through the NY hub.

Han,
You do understand that, as a Nov 16 hire, the individual you are talking about cannot hold ER Capt and the title is awarded out of seniority. Same thing happened when we had Horseshack as a VP. He flew 777 Capt but could not hold the airplane. One of the perks of being management I guess but, in my opinion only, a slap in the face to people that put in their time and wait patiently until they can actually hold it.

Also consider how much the “captain” title is hailed at events like In-Command. They want us to think it is earned and an honor, but then they hand it out like candy.
I don’t care what title anyone uses to address me. “Hey you,” “dummy,” etc. are all things I respond to. But management’s hypocrisy when it comes to respecting captains is apparent with RG. That is what grinds my gears.
It begs the question of why and makes me wonder how RG would respond at a cocktail party or the hotel bar (not that he ever sees a hotel bar, as that would require a layover) when asked the question “What do you do?”
Road hazard mitigation specialist is my go-to, by the way.

In the monthly bidding newsletter it said the RCC ASKED for like 12% of trips to be 1 day trips in NYC? Even people that drive in don't want 1 day trips? Make it 3% at most. Almost Every trip in open time right now for 220B is a day trip.

Are you really trying to redirect from your ignorant comment? Dude, you are adorable and I love it. Leaders listen, they don’t put barriers to entry on good ideas. Get a clue man.

Maybe the 7ER is the only domestic thing we have that doesn't fly into DCA?

I’m curious, what is the average credit on your 1 day trips? Are the 1 day trips credit efficient, or a time suck for you? I’m a commuter, but I would stack 1 day trips together on the 73 if my seniority would hold it. Ours are typically Caribbean turns that credit 7 plus a day. As it is, I frequently manage a 1 day at the front or back end of a 4 day when I pattern bid. With an easy to reach crash pad, a pilot could knock out an entire month of flying with a couple of 5 day stretches of 1 day trips.

When we had one day turns on the ER in NYC they went very senior. Guys would back them up and loved knocking out 8 hours or more a day.

They go very senior on the 73 as well. Some fall through the cracks to help out those outside the top 15%. I don’t know where the complaints on my fleet come from on the one day trips. My complaint as a commuter are the EWR 0700 sign in (Crew van leaves Kew gardens at 3:30 to arrive at EWR at 5:30) and the 2330 arrival at the end (guess what time the last van going east leaves?). It wouldn’t be as bad if they were 5 day uncommutables, but I end up seeing a lot of 2 or 3 day uncommutables in open time.

The 757 does fly into DCA.

Most of the NYC A320 trips in open time right now are under 6:00. A few are worth 6:20 or under.

Oh, I know what you mean. Like the data you presented to the pilot group in order to rationalize ignoring the JV violations. That was a nice and well thought out presentation highlighting a total and unconditional surrender.

I think since it is now 2020, we can choose the thread as “Fail of the Year”.

Arbitrator agreed. Those pesky facts

It was still a violation. 1 or 100. It is still bad.

It was a joke. See "P-56"

Why can't you guys get over him being a captain? It's literally just a dumb title. Seniority list pilots get bought off their trips per the contract whenever these guys fly. Someone gets PAID to not fly.

Sounds like the only problem is people's fragile egos.

So what is the joke? I think more than a few of us don’t know or get it?

Agree 100%. It doesn't bother me one bit. As long as whoever can hold the trip seniority wise is getting paid they can have John Travolta or whoever fly it

It was the advocacy that mattered.