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09-23-2020 | 04:40 PM
#341
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,529
Likes: 197
From: UNA
lowering ALV by 5-10 hours is not destroying our contract. Getting rid of top end of ALV, loosening scope, lowering pay rates are all things that would make our contract less desirable. To my knowledge none of these have been proposed.
I hate to break it to some of you but a BK judge will cut what needs to be cut, regardless of how much we “don’t give an inch”. We can hold strong all day long but as long as section 1113(c) of the US ch 11 Bankruptcy code still exists, a trip to court negates any “holding strong” we do.
For now the cuts proposed don’t cause us to lower rates or erode work rules like ADG, if we keep saying no to anything and everything the company offers and DL goes to BK; rates will be lowered significantly and we will be working more days for less credit.
09-23-2020 | 04:48 PM
#342
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,529
Likes: 197
From: UNA
Are you seriously suggesting we gauge the will of the Delta pilots' by how UAL pilots vote on an agreement not negotiated by us, and that has nothing to do with us? Am I understanding you right? Uhhh, no. And I said almost, btw...
Openers were exchanged April 5, 2019. Almost a YEAR before the bottom dropped out. Throwing out the 1 January amendable date, and juxtaposing that with the start of COVID is disingenuous. Not to mention putting the blame on ALPA for painfully slow negotiations. We may well have made a large ask, while the company was printing BILLIONS a year, but the company was not talking negotiations seriously.
Openers were exchanged April 5, 2019. Almost a YEAR before the bottom dropped out. Throwing out the 1 January amendable date, and juxtaposing that with the start of COVID is disingenuous. Not to mention putting the blame on ALPA for painfully slow negotiations. We may well have made a large ask, while the company was printing BILLIONS a year, but the company was not talking negotiations seriously.
I should have worded my question differently, I was seriously asking when openers were exchanges as I was hired after it happened. I thought it was November ish, I’ll happily admit I was wrong. I don’t necessarily blame Alpa for the pace of negotiations, I just saw their proposal as very high and not conducive to an on time TA. I do think overall APLA has been more reasonable than DL, at least in my time here. I just don’t think holding our lack of a contract as a reason to not negotiate at all is realistic.
In the past 10 years I think I can count on 1 hand how many RLA pilot contracts have been delivered on time
09-23-2020 | 04:52 PM
#343
75 most of the time
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 266
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From: 7ER B
I don’t blame DAPLA if a deal is not reached, I would blame them if they refused to even negotiate to prove a point[/QUOTE]
I agree. DALPA from their comma has been trying to negotiate for awhile. I don’t think they are trying to cut off their noses to spite their faces. Delta is in dire straits and so are all of our jobs from number 1 on down. I expected a black swan event or 2 in my career but this one is unprecedented.
I agree. DALPA from their comma has been trying to negotiate for awhile. I don’t think they are trying to cut off their noses to spite their faces. Delta is in dire straits and so are all of our jobs from number 1 on down. I expected a black swan event or 2 in my career but this one is unprecedented.
09-23-2020 | 04:57 PM
#344
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,529
Likes: 197
From: UNA
I agree. DALPA from their comma has been trying to negotiate for awhile. I don’t think they are trying to cut off their noses to spite their faces. Delta is in dire straits and so are all of our jobs from number 1 on down. I expected a black swan event or 2 in my career but this one is unprecedented.
09-23-2020 | 05:25 PM
#345
Thread Starter
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09-23-2020 | 05:41 PM
#346
On Reserve
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 197
Likes: 23
I hate to break it to some of you but a BK judge will cut what needs to be cut, regardless of how much we “don’t give an inch”. We can hold strong all day long but as long as section 1113(c) of the US ch 11 Bankruptcy code still exists, a trip to court negates any “holding strong” we do.
What you’re saying is technically true, but let’s keep it in perspective. OTH is there value (morally or otherwise) in negotiating something that could mitigate furloughs. That is what we as a group will need to answer.
EDIT: the BK judge “took more”
09-23-2020 | 05:42 PM
#347
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 13,233
Likes: 681
From: ir.delta.com
I don’t disagree, if you look back at the chain of quotes that lead to my comment, hockey pilot was saying we should just do nothing because we can, no matter what offer the company offers our answer should be no. Someone pointed out that was dumb and hurt jr pilots. Then blame was passed to PRC.
I don’t blame DAPLA if a deal is not reached, I would blame them if they refused to even negotiate to prove a point
I don’t blame DAPLA if a deal is not reached, I would blame them if they refused to even negotiate to prove a point
09-23-2020 | 06:03 PM
#348
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,529
Likes: 197
From: UNA
I wasn't here when it happened, but in a past downturn did not the pilots give 30+% in pay cuts only to have the company file BK anyway and take more? What would you say about that in the context of “holding strong?”
What you’re saying is technically true, but let’s keep it in perspective. OTH is there value (morally or otherwise) in negotiating something that could mitigate furloughs. That is what we as a group will need to answer.
EDIT: the BK judge “took more”
What you’re saying is technically true, but let’s keep it in perspective. OTH is there value (morally or otherwise) in negotiating something that could mitigate furloughs. That is what we as a group will need to answer.
EDIT: the BK judge “took more”
airlinefiles.com has historical pay rates for all the legacies. for those who were not here (like me) it is truly enlightening how far we fell and how far we have come since the mid 2000s. Eg in 2006 12 year 757/767 CA pay was $155/hour at DL and $152/hour at UAL
09-23-2020 | 07:38 PM
#349
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 638
Likes: 3
From: A330 FO
If you’re talking about the company’s proposal to save all furloughs then I’m inclined to agree. With 90% of those polled saying “no concessions”, it would have to be a great deal to even make it to MEMRAT, let alone pass. I’m doubtful that proposal will even make it to MEMRAT. I hope I’m wrong.
09-23-2020 | 08:08 PM
#350
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Joined: May 2012
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If you’re talking about the voluntary LOA then I respectfully disagree. It’s not great, but it’s completely voluntary. Social media isn’t a great barometer. IMHO if it goes to MEMRAT then it passes by at least 2/3rds.
If you’re talking about the company’s proposal to save all furloughs then I’m inclined to agree. With 90% of those polled saying “no concessions”, it would have to be a great deal to even make it to MEMRAT, let alone pass. I’m doubtful that proposal will even make it to MEMRAT. I hope I’m wrong.
If you’re talking about the company’s proposal to save all furloughs then I’m inclined to agree. With 90% of those polled saying “no concessions”, it would have to be a great deal to even make it to MEMRAT, let alone pass. I’m doubtful that proposal will even make it to MEMRAT. I hope I’m wrong.
I’d skip MEMRAT on the voluntary LOA and just approve it, even if it upsets the radical few.
I’d deep six the second company proposal ... even without seeing at it.
