When Section 6 starts up again...
03-21-2021 | 08:15 AM
#91
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2011
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From: Hoping for any position
A deadzoner is a pilot who will end up with a smaller retirement than the majority of pilots because he lacked sufficient time for the DC plan to fund a replacement retirement when the DB plan was terminated. When the DB plan was initially frozen it had a greater effect on the bottom third of the seniority list and would have left that portion of the list with a smaller benefit. To compensate for that the then new DC plan was targeted to proved the bottom third of the list a much higher DC benefit. Deadzoners saw between 0 and 3% DC money. The bottom of the list saw up to 18%. The goal was to attempt to provide each pilot regardless of seniority a 49% FAE benefit. The company provided funding for a straight 9% to every pilot. The union targeted that money from 0 to 18% per pilot based on the amount of your frozen benefit plus a age factor.
In the event the DB plan was terminated the union stated they would retarget future DC funds to make the pilots receiving under 9% whole. That never happened and we went to a flat rate DC plan so deadzoners lost that DC money. In addition the money via the note and claim received when the DB plan terminated was initially supposed to be based on how much a pilot lost with the termination of the DB plan. When the calculations were run it left the bottom of the list with a very small payout. The note and claim money was redistributed with a new formula where they refigured everyone’s lost DB benefit by plussing all pilots up to a FAE of 205,000. When that still sent the majority of the funding to the top of the list they added a payment minimum based on years of service to again plus up the bottom of the list.
Having said all of the above most deadzoners should have a comfortable retirement if they did not blow the note and claim money on boats booze and multiple marriages. They also saw a nice increase in PBGC money when the stock the PBGC received for assuming the DB plan performed so well the PBGC was forced by law to increase the Delta pilot payments.
In summary the union back then made the decision as a issue of fairness to attempt to provide all pilots with a roughly equal retirement by providing targeted funding from the DC and note and claim. The union was controlled at that point by the same pilots who some are calling greedy today when those pilots are now asking for some type of targeted system to provide a more equal projected retirement benefit.
In the event the DB plan was terminated the union stated they would retarget future DC funds to make the pilots receiving under 9% whole. That never happened and we went to a flat rate DC plan so deadzoners lost that DC money. In addition the money via the note and claim received when the DB plan terminated was initially supposed to be based on how much a pilot lost with the termination of the DB plan. When the calculations were run it left the bottom of the list with a very small payout. The note and claim money was redistributed with a new formula where they refigured everyone’s lost DB benefit by plussing all pilots up to a FAE of 205,000. When that still sent the majority of the funding to the top of the list they added a payment minimum based on years of service to again plus up the bottom of the list.
Having said all of the above most deadzoners should have a comfortable retirement if they did not blow the note and claim money on boats booze and multiple marriages. They also saw a nice increase in PBGC money when the stock the PBGC received for assuming the DB plan performed so well the PBGC was forced by law to increase the Delta pilot payments.
In summary the union back then made the decision as a issue of fairness to attempt to provide all pilots with a roughly equal retirement by providing targeted funding from the DC and note and claim. The union was controlled at that point by the same pilots who some are calling greedy today when those pilots are now asking for some type of targeted system to provide a more equal projected retirement benefit.
1995-2000 hire, 30/40//50 years old. What’s their situation today? What was/is the worst case scenario?
03-21-2021 | 08:15 AM
#92
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Put a +1 from me on the Scope, QoL, Pay in that order concept.
As an affected pilot, the Delta pilots came through on 20-04 to give me enough job security that, though times would have been tight, I would have not lost my (regional pilot modest) house. Obviously, the Feds made sure that wasn't a problem but nonetheless I have no problem reciprocating help if there are DZers or other Delta pilots who need it.
Need it is the operative word, though. I certainly would not have gotten rich on your generosity. Please don't get rich on mine. But if people need help, 100% lets do it.
As an affected pilot, the Delta pilots came through on 20-04 to give me enough job security that, though times would have been tight, I would have not lost my (regional pilot modest) house. Obviously, the Feds made sure that wasn't a problem but nonetheless I have no problem reciprocating help if there are DZers or other Delta pilots who need it.
Need it is the operative word, though. I certainly would not have gotten rich on your generosity. Please don't get rich on mine. But if people need help, 100% lets do it.
03-21-2021 | 08:21 AM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,531
Likes: 198
From: UNA
Put a +1 from me on the Scope, QoL, Pay in that order concept.
As an affected pilot, the Delta pilots came through on 20-04 to give me enough job security that, though times would have been tight, I would have not lost my (regional pilot modest) house. Obviously, the Feds made sure that wasn't a problem but nonetheless I have no problem reciprocating help if there are DZers or other Delta pilots who need it.
Need it is the operative word, though. I certainly would not have gotten rich on your generosity. Please don't get rich on mine. But if people need help, 100% lets do it.
As an affected pilot, the Delta pilots came through on 20-04 to give me enough job security that, though times would have been tight, I would have not lost my (regional pilot modest) house. Obviously, the Feds made sure that wasn't a problem but nonetheless I have no problem reciprocating help if there are DZers or other Delta pilots who need it.
Need it is the operative word, though. I certainly would not have gotten rich on your generosity. Please don't get rich on mine. But if people need help, 100% lets do it.
Count me down as another for SCOPE, QOL, pay in that order.
03-21-2021 | 08:23 AM
#94
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 3,994
Likes: 198
From: Looking left
I would prefer they stay gone and keep DCI shrinking.
03-21-2021 | 08:53 AM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 3,994
Likes: 198
From: Looking left
Can you give me an idea of how much a contract like this would cost....just ballpark? I would like to compare it to what has been achievable in previous contracts.
And when you say trips touching vacay dropped....is that dropped with pay, does it include all weeks, or only primary and secondary vacay weeks?
I'd like to also ask for a "cola" to the PBGC benefit and the NWA FAE retirement plan...sounds reasonable....OBTW that COLA should be retroactive to when the plans were frozen....sounds reasonable also?
Thoughts???
And when you say trips touching vacay dropped....is that dropped with pay, does it include all weeks, or only primary and secondary vacay weeks?
I'd like to also ask for a "cola" to the PBGC benefit and the NWA FAE retirement plan...sounds reasonable....OBTW that COLA should be retroactive to when the plans were frozen....sounds reasonable also?
Thoughts???
I have no idea what it would cost...I don't have access to DAL or ALPA numbers on historical numbers of IA's or GS, or how money DAL much paid for vacations back when everyone had an extra week, but pay rates were less back then too.
Trips and vacation: dropped with pay protection...just like FedEx has. I would ask for it to apply to all weeks just like FedEx.
The PBGC is a government agency (I know you know that), you will have to address PBGC COLA with your elected representatives in Congress.
COLA...sure.
Retro...no.
03-21-2021 | 09:47 AM
#96
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Joined: Apr 2018
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Likes: 35
This is the point that I think many miss....especially those hired 2010 and after. (For some reason I can't access delta pay statements 2017 and before) but as a 767 capt with over 12 years service(I actually had about 20 yos) I made 175K in 2006 and 179k in 2009( these are the 2 years I remember) It took C2012 to restore some of the pay rates and cC2015v2 to get them to what they are today. We have 3 year guys making as muck/more today and a 16% DC.
The frozen DB(North) and PBGC was not too bad back....15 years ago when it went down....now fast forward 10 more years from here....it will be at half the purchasing power. The DC of 16 % now is great....great because the % is much greater than it was , coupled with the monstrous pay raises that took 10-12 to achieve. So, by and large, I think the 2010 and later guys look at what they are now getting and just assume it was kinda like that for the 30 years prior and can't imagine how, other than malfeasance, the 30 year pilots don't have more money than Midas.
My last 4 years of W-2from Delta have been astounding....average that with 28 years of mediocrity( 4 1/2 years B-scale and 10 years of bankruptcy wages) and the average is less than eye-watering. Enough to retire on?....Sure. But certainty not what most young guns think it is. (I am not poor mouthing my situation.....just attempting to provide some perspective.)
What's that saying...."If I just made as much as my neighbor thinks I do?" ..... same/same
03-21-2021 | 10:35 AM
#98
Thread Starter
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,292
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From: A350 Both
I will be 61 this summer. Whether or not it worked for someone has little to do with age however. It has more to do with the timing and 'plan B'. I surmised that at my seniority in my category that I would have been gone in September and I was correct. Had I been able to get the December of 2021 separation date, I could have been more prepared. You can poopoo that if you so choose, but punching out on such short notice is what didn't work for me. Had I already made the move back to East Tennessee it might have. If the decision were purely about the money, I could have gone 5 years ago. It's not just about that.
Oh... and yeah, I am right square in the middle of the dead zone.
Oh... and yeah, I am right square in the middle of the dead zone.
03-21-2021 | 10:39 AM
#99
Racketeer
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 13,248
Likes: 704
From: N60.4858 W149.9327
I will be 61 this summer. Whether or not it worked for someone has little to do with age however. It has more to do with the timing and 'plan B'. I surmised that at my seniority in my category that I would have been gone in September and I was correct. Had I been able to get the December of 2021 separation date, I could have been more prepared. You can poopoo that if you so choose, but punching out on such short notice is what didn't work for me. Had I already made the move back to East Tennessee it might have. If the decision were purely about the money, I could have gone 5 years ago. It's not just about that.
Oh... and yeah, I am right square in the middle of the dead zone.
Oh... and yeah, I am right square in the middle of the dead zone.
03-21-2021 | 10:50 AM
#100
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Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,292
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From: A350 Both
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