after a certain point of competence, that’s correct.


because that’s the way it has always been done.


you’re so close to getting why we wouldn’t have any leverage.

Absolutely. It's the exact same job. This is how the world works outside of the airline industry. I have non-aviation friends that will quit a multi-six figure job without thinking twice knowing they will get another one doing the same thing.

it's the same reason that software engineers get paid so much. They are rare to find and it takes lots of work to become one. So the scarcity of supply of qualified individuals that drives the leverage/pay. It's not the type of profession.

your friends aren’t interchangeable widgets in their industries.

pilots are interchangeable widgets.

If scarcity of pilots made them valuable, why do RJ pilots make so little? We aren’t scarce, our skills aren’t constantly growing in a way that produces revenue, and we are interchangeable.

Because people are willing to devalue their worth in exchange for experience so they can then use that experience to attain higher paying jobs that demand more experience. Just as it happens in every industry. As I have said CA or FO is just an arbitrary title at your company. The longer you have done "x" the more experience you have and thus the more compensation you should have.

experience doesn’t attain you a higher paying job in aviation. Longevity does.

Let's see at 250 hrs you can fly people, at 500 hrs you can do day VFR 135, at 1200hrs you can fly 135 operations, at 1500 hrs you can fly for a 121 airline, at 1000hrs 121 experience you can be a CA. So yes each of those jobs pays more than the other. And each one requires more experience. So your argument is invalid.

To add onto that most regional airlines will hire you at 1500hrs but unless you are military no major airline will touch you. So you build experience or as we call it flight time. Once you are competitive you can interview with a major airline and then make even more $.

This whole discussion is just dumb, and horribly off topic.

Do you folks have a side bet to see how many posts you can drift a thread(s) or something?

Do you think a pilot with 10000 TPIC would garner a larger paycheck than someone with 5000tpic when applying for, say, a 737 captain spot in your negotiated scenario?

At this point the discussion is so far in the realm of fantasy that you might as well be talking about whether we should staff the airline with elves or ogres.

agree. While some may argue a software engineer can leave a 6 figure job and just go get another one, there are other examples of the exact opposite. In the real business world, some people with 15-20 years of ‘experience’ are lay-off candidates because the business can replace him/her with a new younger cheaper person who will do the same work.

It seems those pilots most in favor of pay banding are relatively junior and were hired at a major later in life. For obvious reasons. Paybanding punishes seniority and transfers those benefits to the less senior. Broadly speaking, IMO.

Neither has anything to do with the Easter meltdown, which will vanish in the rear view mirror ASAPly. Bring on the MOAB and new hires again! Indoc 330B’s by next summer in NYC.

Huh....you must have a different FOM than I do and must be on a fleet where both pilots wear 4 stripes all the time.

It isn't the same job. It's a democratic dictatorship. Each pilot gets one vote but only the Captain's counts in the end because the Captain, not the FO, is ultimately responsible.

exactly. The Captain bears much more risk than an FO. Every leg.

[QUOTE=Bert Sampson;3220125]At this point the discussion is so far in the realm of fantasy that you might as well be talking about whether we should staff the airline with elves or ogres.[/QUOTE]

Elves. No question. And not the Santa-type ones.

im pretty sure he was comparing a year 1 FO an a year 20+ FO on the same plane, not a CA and a FO.

Your line of 'logic' is about the dumbest thing I have read on the interwebs in quite awhile.

Delta hires captains I was told. And Liv Tyler type elves.

Evangeline Lilly

I'm talking a 12 year FO vs a new hire FO in the exact same seat.

Your line of thinking that two guys doing the exact same job in the exact same seat producing the same amount of revenue at the same company with the same responsibility should make different wages is the dumbest thing I have read in a long time. Thankfully we have a contract to protect us because in the real world, company's would just fire the higher paid employees and go with the lower paid.

LOL So I am guessing that if you needed heart surgery you would opt for the cheapest doctor available. After all... same job, right?

Benevolent dictatorship.

No, what you wrote is the dumbest thing. It’s the way every PWA at every airline I’m aware of works. Here we get a raise every year until year 12. In the military, it’s every two years. It has always been thus. What you are advocating will never ever ever happen, and is a complete waste of time to take up 30 posts arguing about it.

#StopThreadDrift

12 yr FO will almost always be more competent than a new hire FO. I think a better comparison would be 12 yr to 5 yr FO. It’s almost as if we start as an apprentice, become a journeyman and eventually a master of our trade. It reminds me of (insert skilled trade here) union.

Sorry...that wasn't entirely clear in your post. However, I would say a 12 year FO still brings more experience than a new hire FO in the exact same seat. The "pay model" rewards experience. Probably why a 2 year associate attorney gets paid less than the 10 year partner when working on the same matter. Like bigger pays more, experience pays more.

Can we get back on topic and rename this thead “Spring Meltdown”,then discuss how in the hell we are in “severe IROPS” again this weekend?

Who is steering this ship? When are heads gonna roll for the gross mismanagement of pilot staffing so far this year?

Totally agree. It’s gonna be a long time (if ever) that they man this airline properly. And the IROP thing continues to be ridiculous. I remember one December I called scheduling about a payback day or something and they told me they don’t have time to help me because we were in an IROP. I asked why we were in an IROP. Lady said “it’s Christmas” (it was actually two days before Christmas). I was very polite about it but asked why...there were no big storms, no snow events going on, no IT meltdowns in place, we knew this holiday was coming, so...why the IROP and the ability for them to bend the rules on scheduling due to it. Didn’t get a good response. I wonder how we will ever get out QOL back with decent manning and trips at this point. They know they can run the airline with green slips and we’ve proven we will take them (11,000+ in December). What’s a couple hundred cancellations (who knows what the real number is since we don’t cancel flights if at all possible, we’ll just delay them forever) as long as it makes them a penny more in the ledger.

Memorial day is on a Monday this year, creating a three day weekend at the end of May. Be prepared for the IROPs this unforeseen event will create.

and its a post leap year, or is it pre, pre leapyear?

I am going with Hobbits - after all some Hobbits might be able to stand up in a 737 cockpit.

Scoop :D

Dont worry. When war simultaneously breaks out in Europe and the Pacific this summer, this whole thread won’t matter.

If you have blinders on or are full of negativity, these will be unforeseen. Some people are like that.

Isn't Memorial Day always on a Monday!

This is embarrassing for a normal weekend. I still see a lot of trips in opentime for this afternoon, and many cancellations. What is going on with our operation?!

woke


(filler)

Hey, just because my feet are hairy and i eat 6 meals a day and drink beer every minute im free doesn't mean you can just call me a - ohh look a wizard. Excuse me I'll be right back.

Im not working today but is it just limited to FL ops (WX sucks in Florida rn) or is it more system wide?

System wide. Too many pilots getting vaccinations today:rolleyes:

that has to be it😏😏, as I and thousands others sit here NQAT. But I’m sure it’s all the pilots fault, or so the email we get tomorrow will imply.