points all well taken, but please don’t throw out 20 year old rates without adjustments to compare.

those guys were also not paying $6 for a dozen eggs, $60,0000 for a pickup truck, etc.

it’s valuable and important to understand that $200 20 years ago is roughly $310 today. That makes for good, relatable info.

 

Hmmm, interesting. When the DC was set up some(less seniority) got more DC at 16%. some of the more senior with less time left got less contribution ...5%. So, as time went by they re-evaluated and make adjustments to try to level the playing field, eventually everyone getting the same %. The important thing is, rules change as times change. You used to have to be on property 10 years to be vested....now the retirement plan is portable....helps the younger. Point is...just because you can't imagine a system that does ??????........ maybe , like policing, we need to re-imagine ???. All I know is the same argument used by younger pilots is, "Why should I take less to help you old guys out"...and the old guys say, "Why should I get less to make things better for the young guys?" I can give probably 20 examples of things that got fixed for new/younger guys at the expense of older guys....things the older guys endured and thought that should be fixed due to "equity" .......... B-scale, no pass privileges on probation, paying for pass privileges, pay banding, hotel rooms for training, training pay, commuter paid parking, leveling of GS, etc, etc. Most things that are considered improvements help all equally or( my opinion) help the younger guys more. The most relevant example would be the B-scale. I spent almost 5 years on B-scale and then it got fixed. So, in my mind I paid for it twice. The big "pay" was 5 years at substandard wages....the next "pay time" was achieving a contract that dismantled it at a cost to everyone on property via reduced pay rates. Any fixes, have costs associated with them, and each "side" will view with their inherent bias(usually in the form of "you're taking money out of my pocket").

 

But a better relatable info is taking a 45% pay cut for every Delta pilot and it taking 10 years to get some semblance of that pay rate back. A 45% pay rate cut takes a 90% pay "raise" just to get back to where things used to be.....that doesn't even make up for your inflation argument. How many contracts do you think it takes to get a 90% pay "raise"? Serious question.

BTW...I don't you have any grasp of what befell some of those older pilots Scoop is referring to...he is not talking "old guys" still around.

 

I wonder how much a median house in base was vs now

 

We are in a totally different negotiating environment. Go looks at the ALPA material from 2019.

 

I was curious, so I ran some numbers. (BTW 777A pay was $186 and we had like 8 at the time)

the scales I found had 2006 12 year 7ERA at $155/hr. that equates to roughly $232 today or less than a 12 year ER B would make under this new TA. Given we had less that 30 aircraft total that paid more than 7ER rate, for all but the most senior pilots at the time, that was the highest they could expect to earn. 12 year ER A didn’t break $200/hr til 2013. It was $267 in 2004.

12 year ER FO rate was $106 ( $158 today) I am also assuming a lot of the soft money we have today was not as existent right after BK so factor that in how you will.

 

2006 was the height of the housing bubble. while 2021- present has been a crazy time for housing, it wasn’t like it was all cheap back then.

 

Of course, those rates you reference were rates established during our bankruptcy (that had no snap-back). Look at the 2004 pay rates out of C2K and do the same analysis and you really get to see the dip in pay. And agreed, there was very little "soft" pay after the bankruptcy TA(s). We did it once and did it riggghh....errrrr....again a short time later. It was awesome. 🤣

 

Here's a chart from a C20 update back in 2015, RW did the analysis I think. Not my data, so I can't update it. But shows what happened pretty well:

 

But, but , but....eff those charts and those rates....The pilots close to retirement now(and those that had to retire in the interim) should have fixed the retirement previously. I mean they only took a 45% pay cut which would only take a 90% "raise" to get back to break even (not counting inflation), Why couldn't they fix pay and QOL and retirement all in 1 contract if it was that important? Eff those money grubbing old guys...they want to take $$$ out of my pocket to fix retirement now? Eff 'em!

So, 10 years after bankruptcy and pay still wasn't back to break even(not even counting inflation). As I have said before, the contracts were biased towards fixing pay....then pay and QOL, then pay, QOL, and maybe retirement (for those not already gone who endured 15 years just trying to get back to pre-bankruptcy wage). But not to worry....the DC came into existence which is heavily biased towards those who have a long time horizon at Delta at the payrates that eventually came to parity.