Originally Posted by Tailhookah

Typical response from someone who thinks they know it all and his superiors are all washed up jagoffs. Wrong. (Not you HK. The other guy)

Originally Posted by bohicagain

Rumor

Box indicated low fuel due to inaccurate info.

2 FO's diverted to etops alt while CA was on break.
​

Originally Posted by Meme In Command

No big guy, you were being incredibly condescending. But some seem to think being older and having a lot of valuable experience gives them carte blanche to be d!cks and talk down to others. Now, go ahead and tell me how naive and arrogant I am and how I think I know everything....

Originally Posted by Hotel Kilo

The Hallmark of great leaders is their ability to take criticism and harsh commentary, distill it, learn from it and then apply it to better themselves and those around them.

You will have a long road of hard lessons ahead of you junior given this know it all mentality; you're just too ignorant to see it.

You'd be wise to take advantage of those lessons learned from ones who've been there and done that already. No need for you to reinvent the wheel but hey he's being a douche right??

Originally Posted by Tailhookah

Probably for most of the time. But here’s a scenario…. The junior CA will be on reserve for a long time. So this Easter, he’s on rsv and gets called out for a trip to Europe. The 2 FO’s are also very junior/new. At 30W approximately 3am, they blow a motor…. New CA is in the rack…. Or really first class on the ER. The ER has lots of power and will flip upside down quickly if an engine failure at altitude happens…. The only credible alternate is 500 miles south at Lajes…. BIKF is clobbered. There’s damage to the hydraulics due to the emergency. I can ensure you a new guy w/ 1515 hours (just happened at Delta new hire last week/non military guy) hasn’t ever been to LPLA. Has no idea what it looks like or that it’s usually blowing sideways w/ moderate turbulence to touchdown on most nights/days.

So the new CA and his newbie crew will probably get it in…. I sure hope for all of our behalf. But I’m telling you guys who think the NAT’s are just like going to Birmingham for the 50th time…. They aren’t. It’s very unforgiving overseas. ATC doesn’t look out for you, not to mention the language barrier. You have to be familiar with where you are and there’s no time to dig into the books when the crap hits the fan.

I’ve been across the pond many times. I was an instructor in the Navy and did checks across the pond and pacific. The NAT tracks are different and the ability to monumentally screw the pooch exponentially increases when things go wrong, with no help and no quick diverts w/ no familiar ATC there to hold your hand.

I thought I knew it all. I was an ER guy for many years back in the day. I learned so much from the old timers…. Former Pan Am guys, NWA guys who did those routes for 2-3 decades. They were great. I listened. I learned. Thought I knew it all. Not even close. You can say what you want…. But someone w/ minimum time is not prepared for that dark night w/ Mr Grim Reaper comes knocking.

It goes bad, fast.

Originally Posted by Tailhookah

Probably for most of the time. But here’s a scenario…. The junior CA will be on reserve for a long time. So this Easter, he’s on rsv and gets called out for a trip to Europe. The 2 FO’s are also very junior/new. At 30W approximately 3am, they blow a motor…. New CA is in the rack…. Or really first class on the ER. The ER has lots of power and will flip upside down quickly if an engine failure at altitude happens…. The only credible alternate is 500 miles south at Lajes…. BIKF is clobbered. There’s damage to the hydraulics due to the emergency. I can ensure you a new guy w/ 1515 hours (just happened at Delta new hire last week/non military guy) hasn’t ever been to LPLA. Has no idea what it looks like or that it’s usually blowing sideways w/ moderate turbulence to touchdown on most nights/days.

So the new CA and his newbie crew will probably get it in…. I sure hope for all of our behalf. But I’m telling you guys who think the NAT’s are just like going to Birmingham for the 50th time…. They aren’t. It’s very unforgiving overseas. ATC doesn’t look out for you, not to mention the language barrier. You have to be familiar with where you are and there’s no time to dig into the books when the crap hits the fan.

I’ve been across the pond many times. I was an instructor in the Navy and did checks across the pond and pacific. The NAT tracks are different and the ability to monumentally screw the pooch exponentially increases when things go wrong, with no help and no quick diverts w/ no familiar ATC there to hold your hand.

I thought I knew it all. I was an ER guy for many years back in the day. I learned so much from the old timers…. Former Pan Am guys, NWA guys who did those routes for 2-3 decades. They were great. I listened. I learned. Thought I knew it all. Not even close. You can say what you want…. But someone w/ minimum time is not prepared for that dark night w/ Mr Grim Reaper comes knocking.

It goes bad, fast.

Originally Posted by Trip7

Oh for crying out loud the NATs are not an Apollo mission. What you described is a CRM exercise for the Captain. At no point is there any rush to make a decision. 500nm to the alternate? Sounds like a 3 man crew has time to coordinate and plan for that approach.

If all this is so difficult long time WB FOs would be excellent upgrade candidates yet they are the #1 demographic for training issues during upgrade.

Originally Posted by 20Fathoms

Preach it brother Trip. Being the final authority does not mean doing every task yourself. Delegation is part of keeping that macro view and the big picture. Yes we make the call, but I don’t need to interview every disgruntled passenger. I had a rather heated disagreement recently between the FAs and a suit and tie guy from SLC ops on a pax removal. My call, and made with no regrets (kicked off), but we have people and there’s a process.

That being said, if the captain wants to go back it’s your ship so go back; but generally the captain of the Titanic doesn’t personally talk to unruly drunks on his ship. Even if we do dress like said captain

Originally Posted by Trip7

Funny thing is with all this angst about young Captains, all the TMZ/Twitter videos involve older Captains that believe going back to the cabin and talking to the pax like they are military cadets is proper handling of said pax. Hopely the negative feedback and publicity from those incidents gives them the "experience" to utilize CRM better in the future.

There is No substitute for experience, but there also is no substitute for CRM and adherence to SOPs

Originally Posted by Tailhookah

Probably for most of the time. But here’s a scenario…. The junior CA will be on reserve for a long time. So this Easter, he’s on rsv and gets called out for a trip to Europe. The 2 FO’s are also very junior/new. At 30W approximately 3am, they blow a motor…. New CA is in the rack…. Or really first class on the ER. The ER has lots of power and will flip upside down quickly if an engine failure at altitude happens…. The only credible alternate is 500 miles south at Lajes…. BIKF is clobbered. There’s damage to the hydraulics due to the emergency. I can ensure you a new guy w/ 1515 hours (just happened at Delta new hire last week/non military guy) hasn’t ever been to LPLA. Has no idea what it looks like or that it’s usually blowing sideways w/ moderate turbulence to touchdown on most nights/days.

So it's a junior FO issue..
I trust the FOs to step on the rudder regardless of the experience level of the Captain on break
Most DL Captains have never been to LPLA. The junior CA in your example has probably been to BIKF as an FO several times while the senior captain has been flying past it on the way to Europe.
If the newly minted captain passed TOE, they learned to review the ETOPS alternate weather and call up the most likely approach and airport diagram at the ETP.

So the new CA and his newbie crew will probably get it in…. I sure hope for all of our behalf. But I’m telling you guys who think the NAT’s are just like going to Birmingham for the 50th time…. They aren’t. It’s very unforgiving overseas. ATC doesn’t look out for you, not to mention the language barrier. You have to be familiar with where you are and there’s no time to dig into the books when the crap hits the fan.

I’ve been across the pond many times. I was an instructor in the Navy and did checks across the pond and pacific. The NAT tracks are different and the ability to monumentally screw the pooch exponentially increases when things go wrong, with no help and no quick diverts w/ no familiar ATC there to hold your hand.

NAT diversions create lots of time to Aviate, Navigate and Communicate. I'd be more worried about a new Captain making a rushed decision between ATL-MCO.

I thought I knew it all. I was an ER guy for many years back in the day. I learned so much from the old timers…. Former Pan Am guys, NWA guys who did those routes for 2-3 decades. They were great. I listened. I learned. Thought I knew it all. Not even close. You can say what you want…. But someone w/ minimum time is not prepared for that dark night w/ Mr Grim Reaper comes knocking.

It goes bad, fast.