Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-22-2012, 05:03 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
Originally Posted by dragon
First NNP is out, thoughts?
...nothing that hasn't already been hashed out on here, was really hoping I'd missed something. I'm not willing to push this B.S. contract out another 3 years for what they are offering, and what we'll have to give up.
05-22-2012, 05:11 PM
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
I have a basic question on the events of the last couple weeks.
In his April 27 letter, Chairman O'Malley said this:
I'm still not clear on what the "opportunity" was and why it was "fleeting". What aspect of this deal was so perishable that it caused us to accelerate the negotiations to such a degree? Why was there a deadline? Was all this done just to create a sense of urgency? Who benefitted from that? Did our negotiators depart from the pilot's expressed wishes in the surveys in order to meet this deadline?
Are they saying Southwest put a deadline on us for the 717s? Bombardier put a deadline on us for ordering 76 seaters? Was it just a Delta management imposed deadline?
I don't get it. Maybe I'm missing something obvious.
Someone help me out.
In his April 27 letter, Chairman O'Malley said this:
While neither the MEC nor I are at liberty to discuss the many detailed moving parts of the current negotiations at this point, I will say this: The time to capitalize on opportunity is now, but that opportunity is also fleeting. If we are not able to reach an agreement in the near-term, we will likely revert to negotiations along a more traditional Section 6 timeline.
I'm still not clear on what the "opportunity" was and why it was "fleeting". What aspect of this deal was so perishable that it caused us to accelerate the negotiations to such a degree? Why was there a deadline? Was all this done just to create a sense of urgency? Who benefitted from that? Did our negotiators depart from the pilot's expressed wishes in the surveys in order to meet this deadline?
Are they saying Southwest put a deadline on us for the 717s? Bombardier put a deadline on us for ordering 76 seaters? Was it just a Delta management imposed deadline?
I don't get it. Maybe I'm missing something obvious.
Someone help me out.
05-22-2012, 05:15 PM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by Check Essential
I have a basic question on the events of the last couple weeks.
In his April 27 letter, Chairman O'Malley said this:
In his April 27 letter, Chairman O'Malley said this:
While neither the MEC nor I are at liberty to discuss the many detailed moving parts of the current negotiations at this point, I will say this: The time to capitalize on opportunity is now, but
that opportunity is also fleeting. If we are
that opportunity is also fleeting. If we are
not able to reach an agreement in the near-term, we will likely revert to negotiations along a more traditional Section 6 timeline.
I'm still not clear on what the "opportunity" was and why it was "fleeting". What aspect of this deal was so perishable that it caused us to accelerate the negotiations to such a degree? Why was there a deadline?Was all this done just to create a sense of urgency? Who benefitted from that? Did our negotiators depart from the pilot's expressed wishes in the surveys in order to meet this deadline?
Are they saying Southwest put a deadline on us for the 717s? Bombardier put a deadline on us for ordering 76 seaters?
I don't get it. Maybe I'm missing something obvious.
Someone help me out.
I'm still not clear on what the "opportunity" was and why it was "fleeting". What aspect of this deal was so perishable that it caused us to accelerate the negotiations to such a degree? Why was there a deadline?Was all this done just to create a sense of urgency? Who benefitted from that? Did our negotiators depart from the pilot's expressed wishes in the surveys in order to meet this deadline?
Are they saying Southwest put a deadline on us for the 717s? Bombardier put a deadline on us for ordering 76 seaters?
I don't get it. Maybe I'm missing something obvious.
Someone help me out.
I think the fleeting opportunity has nothing to do with RJs or 717's. I still don't think it's been hinted at. I'm thinking it has to do with the next round of industry consolidation, and needing to have the companies financial ducks in a row. I also think this TA provides integration protections that do not exist in our current CBA. Could be necessary to get those protections in place before a deal is done.
05-22-2012, 05:15 PM
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Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
Originally Posted by johnso29
Please don't take my post as a scoff at yours. I'm honestly just trying to look at this from all angles. I agree we have more leverage now then we have had in a long time, but in all honesty I do NOT see us holding out to the point where management just gives in and brings all flying back to mainline in a snap of the fingers. It just won't happen. We don't have that much leverage. I see this as a step towards reducing the amount of outsourced flying, and preventing a scenario where mainline shrinks while regionals grow. I would still like to see a sunset agreement on the DCI flying, so there is room for improvement IMO.
05-22-2012, 05:17 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
ftb, I don't have the time/desire to refute each point, but I'll take this one.
Current SWA rate is $216 on the only airplane they fly, the B-737, and 2/3rds of their jets are -700s or above. Our 1/1/13 rate on that same airplane is $204.47, BUT... we get 14% DC on top of that. For them to get 14% total going into the 401k, they need to put 7% of their own money, so...
DAL 737 = $204.47 into paycheck and $28.63 ($204.47 x 14%) into 401k/DC
SWA 737 = $200.88 (216 x .93) into paycheck and $30.24 (216 x 14%) into 401k
Or looked at it another way, for a SWA pilot to make MORE W2 than a DAL guy, he would have to limit his 401k contribution to 5%. Then his W2 is 216 x .95 = $205.20, but then his 401k is only $21.60.
Current SWA rate is $216 on the only airplane they fly, the B-737, and 2/3rds of their jets are -700s or above. Our 1/1/13 rate on that same airplane is $204.47, BUT... we get 14% DC on top of that. For them to get 14% total going into the 401k, they need to put 7% of their own money, so...
DAL 737 = $204.47 into paycheck and $28.63 ($204.47 x 14%) into 401k/DC
SWA 737 = $200.88 (216 x .93) into paycheck and $30.24 (216 x 14%) into 401k
Or looked at it another way, for a SWA pilot to make MORE W2 than a DAL guy, he would have to limit his 401k contribution to 5%. Then his W2 is 216 x .95 = $205.20, but then his 401k is only $21.60.
How many greenslips does the DAL guy have to fly to get there?
How many days/month does he have to work to get there?
Bow out if you want, but from my math, you cant get there from here.
05-22-2012, 05:19 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Originally Posted by scambo1
So, how does playing math games with "payrates" accomplish the $246K average 12 day/month averge SWA capt W-2?
05-22-2012, 05:21 PM
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,044
Correct me if I'm wrong.
The company has stated at various Q&A's that getting our debt down to 10 billion will save the company between 300-500 MILLION per year in interest.
Someone stated that the value of the contract is 400 million per year (I don't know how that is figured with such deep scope issues, but that's what I've heard).
So, does this pilot group feel that they are worth less that the interest that Delta is going to save by paying down its debt?
Guys (and girls), I'm an optimist. I'm a pro Delta guy. I think rationally, not emotionally. IMO, this TA is a slap in the face. Each person has their threshold for voting yes, but this TA doesn't meet mine. I'm glad that 5 MEC voters had the integrity to say NO.
The company has stated at various Q&A's that getting our debt down to 10 billion will save the company between 300-500 MILLION per year in interest.
Someone stated that the value of the contract is 400 million per year (I don't know how that is figured with such deep scope issues, but that's what I've heard).
So, does this pilot group feel that they are worth less that the interest that Delta is going to save by paying down its debt?
Guys (and girls), I'm an optimist. I'm a pro Delta guy. I think rationally, not emotionally. IMO, this TA is a slap in the face. Each person has their threshold for voting yes, but this TA doesn't meet mine. I'm glad that 5 MEC voters had the integrity to say NO.
05-22-2012, 05:21 PM
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Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
Please show me a document by a reputable source that shows that to be factual? The APC published rate is $216/hr.
I believe the source was SWAPA.
05-22-2012, 05:22 PM
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Posts: 1,462
Originally Posted by flyallnite
I believe the source was SWAPA.
05-22-2012, 05:23 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
Please show me a document by a reputable source that shows that to be factual? The APC published rate is $216/hr. My math was using verifiable data, not sales brochures produced by their union as they screwed the ATN guys
So he takes the bow out position.
Oh and he admits he lost our bet.
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