Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-28-2012 | 12:00 PM
Gets Weekends Off
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From: ATL717A
05-28-2012 | 12:05 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
(1) Find a phone
(2) Call Crew Scheduling
(3) Say whatever two magic words are necessary from the following list:
- I'm sick
- I'm fatigued
- I quit
- F U (will have the same effect as I quit)
- Whatever you do, don't be clever. A friend once asked a scheduler "does that jet have a pointy end? Good. Then use the pointy end and shove it ..." ALPA got him his job back after a year.
When I read the TA my thoughts were that the regional guys will instinctively respond to the "regional" like work rules with "regional" like defenses. The mission oriented folks will be in momentary conflict until they remember safety comes first.
05-28-2012 | 12:11 PM
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
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From: A-320A
You are absolutely correct. It's just the characterization of these ratios and what they do that is incorrect. And it is important to point out that the ratios represent a minimum "safety net." there is nothing to prevent Delta from adding more mainline flying.
I do think its important to put into real prespective what realistic gains are achievable with the ratios and I'm afraid expectations are being set up such that the final ratio should we ever need it falls well below what pilots expected.
Most likely DCI will see a reduction in block hours (my rep hinted at that). That means the actual mainline block hour gain gain will be less than what the ratio increase from 1.19 to 1.56 would suggest.
Easy example:
100 DBH (1)
119 MBH (1.19)
Ratio 1.19 MBH to 1 DBH (this is where we are right now)
reduce DCI by 25%
80 DBH (1)
117 MBH (1.56)
So if we add 70 more 76-set jets at DCI and reduce their block-hours by 25%, the minimum mainline block-hours required will be nearly 2% less than we have today.
Because we have a ratio, a higher reduction in DCI block hours results in a lower baseline for mainline.
I'll leave it up to each individual to define "significant."
Cheers
George
I do think its important to put into real prespective what realistic gains are achievable with the ratios and I'm afraid expectations are being set up such that the final ratio should we ever need it falls well below what pilots expected.
Most likely DCI will see a reduction in block hours (my rep hinted at that). That means the actual mainline block hour gain gain will be less than what the ratio increase from 1.19 to 1.56 would suggest.
Easy example:
100 DBH (1)
119 MBH (1.19)
Ratio 1.19 MBH to 1 DBH (this is where we are right now)
reduce DCI by 25%
80 DBH (1)
117 MBH (1.56)
So if we add 70 more 76-set jets at DCI and reduce their block-hours by 25%, the minimum mainline block-hours required will be nearly 2% less than we have today.
Because we have a ratio, a higher reduction in DCI block hours results in a lower baseline for mainline.
I'll leave it up to each individual to define "significant."
Cheers
George
Not sure if it is a true reduction. Best case I see a mainline jet count like we did at SOC. If I am wrong, show me the work. With the work rule changes, we still would have less pilots and less pilots per seat.
In the bold:
Ratios are a funny thing, and the higher ratios at the end are a result of DCI being shrunk with 50's being parked.
I see this whole part of the PWA as a protection if we shrink, not a guarantee to grow. We hit the ratios with the known aircraft retirements and deliveries at mainline (possible sans the 717) and the retirements at DCI. The catch 22 is the non-compliance provision. It states "anything beyond Delta's control." Well we would generally shrink from a bad economy or a black swan event, and aren't those our of DAL's control? Its a lot more vague than force majure.
05-28-2012 | 12:14 PM
Line Holder
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 643
Likes: 52
Three step checklist:
(1) Find a phone
(2) Call Crew Scheduling
(3) Say whatever two magic words are necessary from the following list:
When I read the TA my thoughts were that the regional guys will instinctively respond to the "regional" like work rules with "regional" like defenses. The mission oriented folks will be in momentary conflict until they remember safety comes first.
(1) Find a phone
(2) Call Crew Scheduling
(3) Say whatever two magic words are necessary from the following list:
- I'm sick
- I'm fatigued
- I quit
- F U (will have the same effect as I quit)
- Whatever you do, don't be clever. A friend once asked a scheduler "does that jet have a pointy end? Good. Then use the pointy end and shove it ..." ALPA got him his job back after a year.
When I read the TA my thoughts were that the regional guys will instinctively respond to the "regional" like work rules with "regional" like defenses. The mission oriented folks will be in momentary conflict until they remember safety comes first.
05-28-2012 | 12:19 PM
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
This may be ultimately correct. A lot will depend on the work rules effect. By keeping the pay raises very modest, the company keeps the pilots hungry. There may be a lot of reserves going for the +15. Who knows?
In any event, the block hour ratios are figured for the first time in
July, 2014. It will be over two years from now before those ratios are used for anything. The company doesn't even need to think about them until then.
In any event, the block hour ratios are figured for the first time in
July, 2014. It will be over two years from now before those ratios are used for anything. The company doesn't even need to think about them until then.
05-28-2012 | 12:24 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,971
Likes: 0
From: Kickin’ Back
You are absolutely correct. It's just the characterization of these ratios and what they do that is incorrect. And it is important to point out that the ratios represent a minimum "safety net." there is nothing to prevent Delta from adding more mainline flying.
I do think its important to put into real prespective what realistic gains are achievable with the ratios and I'm afraid expectations are being set up such that the final ratio should we ever need it falls well below what pilots expected.
Most likely DCI will see a reduction in block hours (my rep hinted at that). That means the actual mainline block hour gain gain will be less than what the ratio increase from 1.19 to 1.56 would suggest.
Easy example:
100 DBH (1)
119 MBH (1.19)
Ratio 1.19 MBH to 1 DBH (this is where we are right now)
reduce DCI by 25%
80 DBH (1)
117 MBH (1.56)
So if we add 70 more 76-set jets at DCI and reduce their block-hours by 25%, the minimum mainline block-hours required will be nearly 2% less than we have today.
Because we have a ratio, a higher reduction in DCI block hours results in a lower baseline for mainline.
I'll leave it up to each individual to define "significant."
Cheers
George
I do think its important to put into real prespective what realistic gains are achievable with the ratios and I'm afraid expectations are being set up such that the final ratio should we ever need it falls well below what pilots expected.
Most likely DCI will see a reduction in block hours (my rep hinted at that). That means the actual mainline block hour gain gain will be less than what the ratio increase from 1.19 to 1.56 would suggest.
Easy example:
100 DBH (1)
119 MBH (1.19)
Ratio 1.19 MBH to 1 DBH (this is where we are right now)
reduce DCI by 25%
80 DBH (1)
117 MBH (1.56)
So if we add 70 more 76-set jets at DCI and reduce their block-hours by 25%, the minimum mainline block-hours required will be nearly 2% less than we have today.
Because we have a ratio, a higher reduction in DCI block hours results in a lower baseline for mainline.
I'll leave it up to each individual to define "significant."
Cheers
George
I would agree with all you state. My one comment would be....what can be done under the current contract? Couldn't we go below a 1 to 1 ratio? It does set a minimum on the down side and (if we ever grow again
) it could be very advantageous. I know, I know, it would be even more advantageous if we did the 76 seat flying. I'm just trying to be realistic with what we have currently.By the way, how ya been George?
Denny
05-28-2012 | 12:31 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 643
Likes: 52
Why would Delta do this:
Pinnacle agreed to waive certain reset rights that would have included higher rates to cover increasing pilot costs in agreements covering the operation of 142 Bombardier CRJ200s and 41 CRJ900s. The carrier also agreed to a modified margin covering the CRJ200 operations. Pinnacle determined the CRJ200s it operates on behalf of Delta produce profits. The carrier bears no ownership costs on those aircraft since it leases the small jets from Delta.
Delta has agreed to extend Pinnacle’s CRJ200 contract by four and a half years, which means it will be saddled with 145 50-seaters that it takes great pains to declare are uneconomical until 2022. Delta does have the right to file an unsecured claim for damages related to an early termination of the operation of the 16 CRJ900s that will span five months beginning in Jan-2013. Pinnacle had been attempting to rework that particular contract after Mr Menke, who took the helm at the carrier in Jun-2011, concluded the agreement was producing marginal economics for Pinnacle.
This took place with the DIP financing recently.
Pinnacle agreed to waive certain reset rights that would have included higher rates to cover increasing pilot costs in agreements covering the operation of 142 Bombardier CRJ200s and 41 CRJ900s. The carrier also agreed to a modified margin covering the CRJ200 operations. Pinnacle determined the CRJ200s it operates on behalf of Delta produce profits. The carrier bears no ownership costs on those aircraft since it leases the small jets from Delta.
Delta has agreed to extend Pinnacle’s CRJ200 contract by four and a half years, which means it will be saddled with 145 50-seaters that it takes great pains to declare are uneconomical until 2022. Delta does have the right to file an unsecured claim for damages related to an early termination of the operation of the 16 CRJ900s that will span five months beginning in Jan-2013. Pinnacle had been attempting to rework that particular contract after Mr Menke, who took the helm at the carrier in Jun-2011, concluded the agreement was producing marginal economics for Pinnacle.
This took place with the DIP financing recently.
05-28-2012 | 12:31 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
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A few months ago I said I would agree to a 20 percent raise up front with COLA every year while keeping everything else status quo. I was crucified on this board for having too low of standards. Our current TA is nowhere near that. I am a no vote. I am amazed how many pilots are defending this TA.
05-28-2012 | 12:37 PM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,971
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From: Kickin’ Back
This may be ultimately correct. A lot will depend on the work rules effect. By keeping the pay raises very modest, the company keeps the pilots hungry. There may be a lot of reserves going for the +15. Who knows?
In any event, the block hour ratios are figured for the first time in
July, 2014. It will be over two years from now before those ratios are used for anything. The company doesn't even need to think about them until then.
In any event, the block hour ratios are figured for the first time in
July, 2014. It will be over two years from now before those ratios are used for anything. The company doesn't even need to think about them until then.
Can you point me to where this is in the TA? According to the scope NNP on the Dalpa website, it looks to me like the ratios are based on the arrival and number of new 76 seaters and 717's. Example: For the first 10 76er's delivered the ratio is 1 to 1:10, for 11 to 20 its 1 to 1:25, for 21 to 30 its 1 to 1:30 all the way up to 61 to 70 it's 1 to 1.56.
What am I missing?
Denny
05-28-2012 | 01:00 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,724
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From: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Can you point me to where this is in the TA? According to the scope NNP on the Dalpa website, it looks to me like the ratios are based on the arrival and number of new 76 seaters and 717's. Example: For the first 10 76er's delivered the ratio is 1 to 1:10, for 11 to 20 its 1 to 1:25, for 21 to 30 its 1 to 1:30 all the way up to 61 to 70 it's 1 to 1.56.
What am I missing?
Denny
What am I missing?
Denny
Back to LAX and just recently booted out again so I'm commuting to reserve in SLC again...
He is right, 1.d.9.c-f, first measured July 1, 2014, must remedy by the folowing January 1st so Jan 1 2015...
How's SEA treating you?
Cheers
George
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