Originally Posted by bigbusdriver (Post 1206926)

Yes they are on to sustainable and consistent raises and increasing mainline fleet numbers (TA) and rapidly approaching retirements with an increasing DC and no loss of pension to start with. This will be a golden age for his group.

Originally Posted by bigbusdriver (Post 1206939)

Never said it does, it guarantees that if we shrink everyone shrinks. I'm okay with that because that's not happening today. I'll take the wager on 88 airframes on top of the actual orders vs today's DCI fleet.

The NMB is like a bankruptcy judge. They don't care about us they only care about making sure Delta stays in business. Nothing in the TA makes it to the NMB and Delta says wahhhhhhhhhh we need APA's scope after all they came up with it themselves.

Originally Posted by bigbusdriver (Post 1206926)

Yes they are on to sustainable and consistent raises and increasing mainline fleet numbers (TA) and rapidly approaching retirements with an increasing DC and no loss of pension to start with. This will be a golden age for his group.

Originally Posted by Bluto (Post 1206942)

Unless we wizz it all away by outsourcing domestic narrowbody flying while making ourselves so efficient we manage to mitigate the first 2-3 years of long-delayed mandatory retirements. Sorry, but you don't get cash to cover your financial loss from my 'no' vote any more than I get a subsidy for the potential stagnation resulting from your 'yes'. We each get one vote.

Many of the post '07 hires, like myself, also have 30+ years to deal with the results of this agreement. Many of us have also worked at numerous airlines and dealt with outsourcing, stagnation, displacements, and furloughs, along with the resulting poverty.

Being senior doesn't make you right any more than being junior makes us wrong. I won't pretend to understand the challenges you've been through, please don't pretend to understand ours.

Originally Posted by bigbusdriver (Post 1206945)

You haven't been stagnated here in only 5 or less years on the property. No way no how. Try sitting sideways for years getting into the right seat and then going back to the panel before going back to the right seat again. Did I mention that's a minimum of 3 bases? I'll give you a hint. Way more than 5 years. This TA provides a mechanism for mainline growth and DCI shrinkage. You're probably too young to remember but you've got a good deal, you have to decide if a donkey is behind door number 3 or if a donkey is behind both doors that are closed?

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 1206943)

That's not what is included in this quote:



Which is it?

This agreement is neither a junior pilots contract nor a senior pilots contract. It is a faulty contract extension with numerous holes that we will be fighting for many years to come.

It has the potential for greatness and realizing that golden age you speak of, but in its current form it will not execute to that level. Some cleaning up (i.e. fixing the quality that was sacrificed for expediency) can be done in short order and would be a major win for the company and the pilot group.

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 1206946)

Are you saying it was uphill going to and from work through 10 feet of snow back in your day? ;)

Originally Posted by bigbusdriver (Post 1206947)

You added the word "guarantee" into this. I believe the TA will add 88 airframes and will move block hours from DCI to mainline. It was quoted that worst case fleet growth is 40 airframes. That's 40 more than today and with protection from shrinking and less DCI. One force majure event in our history and one 1113. How many times has the contract language been used against us to our detriment? Really something that's cost guys jobs since the furloughs stopped almost a decade ago? What loophole has been used to get one over on us? Where have we been raked over the coals by management outside of 1113? You guys are finding loopholes where they don't exist. You are so driven to find a flaw you are introducing your own error into the equation.

Originally Posted by bigbusdriver (Post 1206948)

Sure. Guilty. :o I'm just having a hard time believing the guy whose had some pretty good intel through ALPA work and whatnots and is all of 5 years on the property is the great soothsayer of all things possibly wrong in this TA. His life sounds pretty good to me and I don't see that there's anything in this TA that's going to stop him from moving up and living large. If you look at his Christmas Carol, he made the right choice. Luck?

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1206711)

Not really true. It has not been ALPA National driving the outsourcing, it has been our own MEC. ALPA simply supports our MEC & pilots.

I'm not a hard "yes" or "no" on C2012. I think our MEC did a very good job balancing the interests of our pilot group in the agreement that was reached. Certainly no one can allege it is a windfall for regional guys, as their numbers will be cut under this plan and the remainder won't make much more flying the 76 seat version of the RJ's.

While I understand the staffing protections, the work rule changes in this agreement, as well as the loose language in Section 1 concern me.

Originally Posted by bigbusdriver (Post 1206888)

As a 2007 hire you missed the joy we all had before bankruptcy of seeing our stock made worthless. I do not want any more DAL stock new or old. I'll be happy to send you my stock warrants if you want them to paper something. I don't understand why you'd think that diluting the stock to the employees who already have too much of the stock would help the other stock holders or the stock value or why RA would even consider it. I want pay and I want it today. I am not going to pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.

The same guys that voted no on C2K are the same ones lined up here voting no again and at the hot donut window. It's the same game with the same names. As a 2007 hire you've had near clockwork annual raises since you got here. Try that out with the 10-20 year guys you fly with. You didn't get furloughed in the great recession and got a raise. Five years of contract improvements towards C2K standards and you've got a beef? 23G5 gone! 23K better than C2K! Not one of those pilots who voted no on C2K and is advocating a no now even acknowledges that we got lucky with C2K being signed before 9-11 and enforced through to almost the amenable date.

One force majure event in our lifetime. So what? ALPA grieved and won for pilots on FMII. A real recall schedule. That was a no shi! force majure event yet we still helped bleed the company dry for three more years. There are no other events in our contract history that show that our new language will be FM'd away. All that other language went away starting with LOA 46 brought to you by the same guys from C2K or in the 1113 process. This isn't a game. We haven't changed block hour language without voting eyes open. Pilots were pleading with pilots to vote YES on 51 so there would still be a Delta and the same guys are now pleading for a no vote on a near 24% raise since you were hired and a 48% raise juts for you by 2015. Who's selling fear here?