Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-24-2012, 07:08 AM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Oh well if we're going to play this game, what would have happened had we not passed the TA in June?
Well, we'd probably have gotten a contract by the end of August. After reading the Council 20 letter, I'd assume on the second go around some of the 21 voting members of the MEC would not have allowed the 4 members of the NC to trump them and reach an agreement that did not meet the goals of the MEC.
The 717s would be coming, no more large RJs as we'd come to our senses over the next two months of discussions led here by George's deep thoughts and spreadsheet analysis. And due to no work rules changes we'd be hiring to staff the 717s. Some of the other work rule changes, the positive ones, would stay and the pay rates would probably be the same.
I mean, how can you say I am wrong? We passed it. An approved TA probably gets 47% approval right off the bat without looking.
Well, we'd probably have gotten a contract by the end of August. After reading the Council 20 letter, I'd assume on the second go around some of the 21 voting members of the MEC would not have allowed the 4 members of the NC to trump them and reach an agreement that did not meet the goals of the MEC.
The 717s would be coming, no more large RJs as we'd come to our senses over the next two months of discussions led here by George's deep thoughts and spreadsheet analysis. And due to no work rules changes we'd be hiring to staff the 717s. Some of the other work rule changes, the positive ones, would stay and the pay rates would probably be the same.
I mean, how can you say I am wrong? We passed it. An approved TA probably gets 47% approval right off the bat without looking.
09-24-2012, 07:18 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Dismayed
Posts: 1,598
Originally Posted by slowplay
Do you have any facts or recent history to support your position, or are you playing to your co-workers that are bigger suckers than those dumb rj pilots?
Here's some recent examples:
AFA at USAirways turned down their deal...it got worse. USAPA's governing body turned down their deal, and it got worse. While the final story hasn't been written, APA turned down their deal, and it got worse.
So in your world the "right" answer was to turn down the June 29 deal. You'd now be negotiating in an environment where AMR has 88 seat RJ scope (only using 79 seats at this time) imposed by the court. Nice.
You assert that the B717 were coming anyway, even though Delta management and ALPA told you there was a plan B. Isn't it strange that a Delta competitor "found" about half the number of used amall narrowbodies on the open market just a few short weeks after the TA was ratified. Or how about the capacity math that doesn't work for delivery of all 88 B717s without the deal? You trying to "sucker" somebody?
Here's some recent examples:
AFA at USAirways turned down their deal...it got worse. USAPA's governing body turned down their deal, and it got worse. While the final story hasn't been written, APA turned down their deal, and it got worse.
So in your world the "right" answer was to turn down the June 29 deal. You'd now be negotiating in an environment where AMR has 88 seat RJ scope (only using 79 seats at this time) imposed by the court. Nice.
You assert that the B717 were coming anyway, even though Delta management and ALPA told you there was a plan B. Isn't it strange that a Delta competitor "found" about half the number of used amall narrowbodies on the open market just a few short weeks after the TA was ratified. Or how about the capacity math that doesn't work for delivery of all 88 B717s without the deal? You trying to "sucker" somebody?
The real talking point here is the TA shouldn't have been TA'd in the first place since it didn't meet the MEC's direction. And once it was TA'd, the MEC should have sent it back. However, I do know that the very real problem for the MEC was if they didn't give it to the pilots, there would have been he!! to pay, since we all know the type of control freaks most of us are.
The junior guys who voted against the TA are upset because we were right, while I do get paid more now, we gave up jobs! We were sold a bill of goods by a feckless MEC that cannot or will not stand up for the jobs it is supposed to protect.
09-24-2012, 07:21 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
Oh well if we're going to play this game, what would have happened had we not passed the TA in June?
Well, we'd probably have gotten a contract by the end of August. After reading the Council 20 letter, I'd assume on the second go around some of the 21 voting members of the MEC would not have allowed the 4 members of the NC to trump them and reach an agreement that did not meet the goals of the MEC.
The 717s would be coming, no more large RJs as we'd come to our senses over the next two months of discussions led here by George's deep thoughts and spreadsheet analysis. And due to no work rules changes we'd be hiring to staff the 717s. Some of the other work rule changes, the positive ones, would stay and the pay rates would probably be the same.
I mean, how can you say I am wrong? We passed it. An approved TA probably gets 47% approval right off the bat without looking.
Well, we'd probably have gotten a contract by the end of August. After reading the Council 20 letter, I'd assume on the second go around some of the 21 voting members of the MEC would not have allowed the 4 members of the NC to trump them and reach an agreement that did not meet the goals of the MEC.
The 717s would be coming, no more large RJs as we'd come to our senses over the next two months of discussions led here by George's deep thoughts and spreadsheet analysis. And due to no work rules changes we'd be hiring to staff the 717s. Some of the other work rule changes, the positive ones, would stay and the pay rates would probably be the same.
I mean, how can you say I am wrong? We passed it. An approved TA probably gets 47% approval right off the bat without looking.
At least you're not calling your co-workers names.
09-24-2012, 07:23 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2011
Posts: 402
Originally Posted by boog123
UAL has been doing 90-100 hours per month for 5+ years.
Good for them...or maybe not. I can only speak for myself, I really do not want to work that hard.
I am on the less work for more pay program.
09-24-2012, 07:27 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Originally Posted by dragon
Slow,
The real talking point here is the TA shouldn't have been TA'd in the first place since it didn't meet the MEC's direction. And once it was TA'd, the MEC should have sent it back. However, I do know that the very real problem for the MEC was if they didn't give it to the pilots, there would have been he!! to pay, since we all know the type of control freaks most of us are.
The junior guys who voted against the TA are upset because we were right, while I do get paid more now, we gave up jobs! We were sold a bill of goods by a feckless MEC that cannot or will not stand up for the jobs it is supposed to protect.
The real talking point here is the TA shouldn't have been TA'd in the first place since it didn't meet the MEC's direction. And once it was TA'd, the MEC should have sent it back. However, I do know that the very real problem for the MEC was if they didn't give it to the pilots, there would have been he!! to pay, since we all know the type of control freaks most of us are.
The junior guys who voted against the TA are upset because we were right, while I do get paid more now, we gave up jobs! We were sold a bill of goods by a feckless MEC that cannot or will not stand up for the jobs it is supposed to protect.
94% of the pilots voted. 62% voted in favor.
The MEC voted 14-5 in favor of a TA produced by their unanimously elected Negotiating Committee.
The rest of your post is an acknowledgement of our control freakish nature.
feckless...really?
09-24-2012, 07:32 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
Oh well if we're going to play this game, what would have happened had we not passed the TA in June?
Well, we'd probably have gotten a contract by the end of August.
Well, we'd probably have gotten a contract by the end of August.
09-24-2012, 07:34 AM
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: maddoggy dog
Posts: 1,026
Slow, did you even read what I wrote? Fact, the Skywest pilots were suckered into dealing brad his ace. The planes were already ordered. We fell for the same tactic. Fact, I'm happy with my no vote AND I'm happy that the TA passed. Gee, how can that be? Maybe I'm not that far off in my beliefs with you? Opinion, you can't see that we gave up more than we should have in work rules. Fact, at my seniority im living with the work rule changes. Fact, anyone can cite what you posted above to support their cause. Good for you but some of that happened after the TA passed....I think. Fact, no one really knows what would've happened with a no vote. That's right, you don't know. Nice. Fact, it was delta management that told ALPA they had a plan B. ALPA then forwarded managements negotiating scare tactic on to the pilot group. ALPA actually helped management. Who needs Ford & Harrison as consultants when ALPA does all the work for them. I want to look at the TA and decide for myself. I don't need to be sold a TA. Oh yeah, fact, spirit turned down their deal, it got better.
09-24-2012, 07:46 AM
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Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by tsquare
What year?
sorry august 2012.
09-24-2012, 07:55 AM
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Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Decoupled
Posts: 922
Originally Posted by scambo1
PCIEE FO CKAE !
Wow! I've seen this with the letters out of order, but this is the first time I've seen it with numbers.
Good example of a Brain Study: If you can read this OUT LOUD you have a strong mind.
And better than that: Alzheimer’s is a long, long, ways down the road before it ever gets anywhere near you.
7H15 M3554G3
> 53RV35 7O PR0V3
> H0W 0UR M1ND5 C4N
> D0 4M4Z1NG 7H1NG5!
> 1MPR3551V3 7H1NG5!
> 1N 7H3 B3G1NN1NG
> 17 WA5 H4RD BU7
> N0W, 0N 7H15 LIN3
> Y0UR M1ND 1S
> R34D1NG 17
> 4U70M471C4LLY
> W17H 0U7 3V3N
> 7H1NK1NG 4B0U7 17,
> B3 PROUD! 0NLY
> C3R741N P30PL3 C4N
> R3AD 7H15.
> PL3453 F0RW4RD 1F
> U C4N R34D 7H15.
>
> To my 'selected' strange-minded friends:
>
>
> If you can read the following paragraph, forward it on to your friends and the person that sent it to you with 'yes' in the subject line. Only great minds can read this. This is weird, but interesting!
>
> If you can raed this, you have a sgtrane mnid, too.
>
> Can you raed this? Olny 55 plepoe out of 100 can. I cdnuolt blveiee that I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd what I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in what oerdr the ltteres in a word are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is that the frsit and last ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can still raed it whotuit a pboerlm. This is bcuseaethe huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the word as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! If you can raed this forwrad it
>
> FORWARD ONLY IF YOU CAN READ IT
> Forward it & put 'YES' in the Subject Line
>
> Even if you are not old, you will find this interesting...
>
>
> Short Neurological Test
>
> 1- Find the C below.. Please do not use any cursor help.
>
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOCOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
>
> 2- If you already found the C, now find the 6 below.
>
> 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
> 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
> 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
> 69999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
> 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
> 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
>
> 3 - Now find the N below.. It's a little more difficult.
>
> MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMNMM
> MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>
> This is NOT a joke. If you were able to pass these 3 tests, you can cancel your annual visit to your neurologist. Your brain is great and you're far from having a close relationship with Alzheimer..
Wow! I've seen this with the letters out of order, but this is the first time I've seen it with numbers.
Good example of a Brain Study: If you can read this OUT LOUD you have a strong mind.
And better than that: Alzheimer’s is a long, long, ways down the road before it ever gets anywhere near you.
7H15 M3554G3
> 53RV35 7O PR0V3
> H0W 0UR M1ND5 C4N
> D0 4M4Z1NG 7H1NG5!
> 1MPR3551V3 7H1NG5!
> 1N 7H3 B3G1NN1NG
> 17 WA5 H4RD BU7
> N0W, 0N 7H15 LIN3
> Y0UR M1ND 1S
> R34D1NG 17
> 4U70M471C4LLY
> W17H 0U7 3V3N
> 7H1NK1NG 4B0U7 17,
> B3 PROUD! 0NLY
> C3R741N P30PL3 C4N
> R3AD 7H15.
> PL3453 F0RW4RD 1F
> U C4N R34D 7H15.
>
> To my 'selected' strange-minded friends:
>
>
> If you can read the following paragraph, forward it on to your friends and the person that sent it to you with 'yes' in the subject line. Only great minds can read this. This is weird, but interesting!
>
> If you can raed this, you have a sgtrane mnid, too.
>
> Can you raed this? Olny 55 plepoe out of 100 can. I cdnuolt blveiee that I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd what I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in what oerdr the ltteres in a word are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is that the frsit and last ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can still raed it whotuit a pboerlm. This is bcuseaethe huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the word as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! If you can raed this forwrad it
>
> FORWARD ONLY IF YOU CAN READ IT
> Forward it & put 'YES' in the Subject Line
>
> Even if you are not old, you will find this interesting...
>
>
> Short Neurological Test
>
> 1- Find the C below.. Please do not use any cursor help.
>
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOCOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
>
> 2- If you already found the C, now find the 6 below.
>
> 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
> 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
> 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
> 69999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
> 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
> 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
>
> 3 - Now find the N below.. It's a little more difficult.
>
> MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMNMM
> MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>
> This is NOT a joke. If you were able to pass these 3 tests, you can cancel your annual visit to your neurologist. Your brain is great and you're far from having a close relationship with Alzheimer..
You do know you are junior to me. Thanks. I passed the test with no problems. Now, I can stick around to 65.
09-24-2012, 08:01 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Dismayed
Posts: 1,598
Originally Posted by slowplay
The real talking point here is that your position was in the minority.
94% of the pilots voted. 62% voted in favor.
The MEC voted 14-5 in favor of a TA produced by their unanimously elected Negotiating Committee.
The rest of your post is an acknowledgement of our control freakish nature.
feckless...really?
94% of the pilots voted. 62% voted in favor.
The MEC voted 14-5 in favor of a TA produced by their unanimously elected Negotiating Committee.
The rest of your post is an acknowledgement of our control freakish nature.
feckless...really?
As defined feckless is:feck·less/ˈfeklis/
Adjective:
(of a person) Lacking in efficiency or vitality.
Unthinking and irresponsible.
DAL hasn't met a TA it didn't like and I've seen the incredibly good job the MEC does selling its decisions to the members. They knew it would be passed, the average guy just wants to fly his trips and go home being left alone. There are some that want to do more and some that want to be in charge of more than just themselves. Feckless as I used it was to the point that getting something done fast was more important than doing something good for the long term.
I know my position was in the minority and that's the great thing about democracy. Just because I was out voted doesn't reduce the validity of the arguments.
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