Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1334522)

Yep. I think you are exactly correct. Some think we should accept what GoJets / Teamsters did and move on. But, they caused a lot of harm and that is an example where ALPA fought the good fight for this profession.

Originally Posted by FlyZ (Post 1334460)

Yeah, but 80, so many things have changed since he (pretty much) promised hiring!

- The economy has gone downhill drastically. Well, actually, I guess it's kind of more of a flat hill. Like completely level.

- Life in the military has gotten so bad (by not changing at all) that droves of people have started to come off mil leave...hundreds every day. We have so many people coming off mil leave we can't even find planes to put them in! We may have to flow some of them down to Pinnacle!

- We have so many airplanes unexpectedly going into lie-flat mod...we never could have predicted this before the TA. And like the Bermuda Triangle, or Bangkok, once they go in, they never come back out.

Those are just a few of the changes...there could be more! ;)

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44 (Post 1334505)

The only place I read about a hint of hiring was when our TA was up for vote. I am done reading these updates. It was always pretty obvious to me that we are still a few years away from hiring. I did not vote for the TA, but when it passed, I was really hoping we would hire because we were told we could hire as early as 4th quarter last year. That never happened. Now these same updates are saying we could hire as early as 2014. I agree with the above post. Nothing changed. We are on about the most predictable path possible. It is obvious there was never any plans for immediate hiring. These updates are political in nature and used to manipulate the pilot group. I am now one less member in the audience. I'd also like to add the one recently mentioned that all Pinnacle pilots with meet our hiring standards in a very politically correct way. I would not be surprised if the so called "vault letter" letting the "Gulfstream pilots of Pinnacle" come over actually exists.

Originally Posted by FlyZ (Post 1334460)

- Life in the military has gotten so bad (by not changing at all) that droves of people have started to come off mil leave...hundreds every day. We have so many people coming off mil leave we can't even find planes to put them in! We may have to flow some of them down to Pinnacle!

Originally Posted by Jack Bauer (Post 1334544)

One of these decades ignorant pilots will learn to think for themselves. When carrots are dangled (ie talk of new planes, net positive growth, hiring, etc) they will laugh and realize it's the same nonsense management/ALPA sold and burned them with the last several times. Until this enlightenment occurs prepare for even more outsourcing, productivity, poorer quality of life and stagnation. It's understandable the senior guys will always go for the money grab to pad the ol retirement. For those at the middle or bottom of the list that vote yes for these things, please ask someone to slap you silly in the face until you can knock free whatever it is that makes your judgement decay when faced with a little salesmanship and koolaid. Send back that $1000 vacuum cleaner while you're at it.

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1334548)

Every airframe they dangled is coming exactly as planned on the exact delivery schedule they postulated prior to contract ratification.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1334537)

You make a pragmatic point. In the past you have also advocated the importance of following procedure. As you stated, "process matters." Process particularly matters to the guy who loses the debate. Organizational rules exist to protect the minority view, since the majority is usually adept at taking care of itself.

In this matter, I believe my MEC's action was appropriate given the political reality that the deal was already done, debate prior to the February MEC meeting would have been unlikely to change anything.

Perhaps consideration should be given to refining the MEC Admin manual to more thoroughly consider the idea of virtual meetings. As a line guy, I would like a provision for members to view open sessions and to address the MEC, as allowed by the Chairman, in similar fashion to what we allow in meetings were all are present.

Originally Posted by Rogue24 (Post 1334343)

Gloopy, and Bar you ever think:

From what I have been told from a different point of view:


The fine print in both of theses agreements is the DAL PWA still supersedes them. I have heard the argument wrt to these agreements, that though it is a direct relationship/agreement with Delta Air Lines, Inc, they are only guaranteeing their part of the "permitted flying" as defined under our PWA and if our PWA changes its at Delta's knowledge and concurrence of these documents they signed. Delta would be dutifully bound to our PWA and its new limits. They signed it. What many say is neither of these direct DCI agreements bind Delta to flying other than what is currently permitted and if that changes their agreements are subject to the change. (Permitted flying changes these agreements change)The end cap statement is it does not change "permitted flying" to "excess bargaining" and ultimately not scopeable by another carrier(this will still hold true with all other permitted flying in Section1 as well), meaning we are free to recapture and define permitted flying it at our desire.

Talk to your reps and get their take on what they know. What I posted above is what I am hearing as the answer to your concerns.

Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 1334553)

I think we are talking past each other. My response was on why a meeting via conference call would be called, and was not saying that a conference call was had or that the pinnacle questions that the MEC may or may not have would have been dealt with via a special meeting via conference call. As far as I know there was no special meeting, or conference call but it may have occurred, I am just not aware of it.